Anyone else here struggle with your feelings about ppl who don’t work?

[Anonymous]

I think that focusing on whether or not that SAHMs of school-aged kids are making a bad choice is the wrong way to think about OP’s issue. It actually doesn’t matter. The issue is that OP is apparently having an outsized reaction to things that don’t impact her and that she can’t do anything about. People make terrible decisions all the time, and it’s important to notice when our reaction to those decisions are having a negative impact on our lives. Those reactions tell us about ourselves and might point to something in our life that we could actually change and make better.

I have had to work through this with a therapist. I used to ruminate in the shower about the way that some husbands treated their wives and this sort of got me down, even though my husband is amazing! And I didnt have this intense reaction to hearing about things that were objectively worse. Talking with my therapist, I realized that when I heard about men treating their wives badly, it subconsciously reminded me of my mom complaining of my dad treating her badly and sort of got me in that same headspace. I think I was ultimately a little unsure about my husband’s love and commitment for me. I worked on how to feel more secure in my marriage and on accepting the fact that life is always uncertain. Just thinking “well maybe these wives are exaggerating how bad it was” wouldn’t have helped.

[Anonymous]

(Also op) there is something else there that triggers me though - idk what it is but this thread is helpful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

I'm busy all day both before and after work, our house isn't as clean as I would like, we don't eat as healthily as I would like, I'm exhausted and I don't think I can keep up full time work for much longer. That's reality for me. My work is pretty flexible but I just can't do everything, and my spouse works full-time in an office. My kids are in elementary and middle school.

This is the truth for most dual income couples. For the ones it's not the truth for, they are outsourcing a lot.

In other words, there is enormous value in having a SAHP, even when your kids are school age. Raising kids and taking care of a family home requires a lot of work. Someone is doing it, no matter what. Either one or both parents are working a double shift, you're hiring people, or the house/family is always right on the edge of going to pieces (producing a ton of stress for all involved).

This is why I will never understand the people who act like SAHPs with school age kids are just lazy. I guess some small percentage of SAHPs have so much money from their spouse's income that they are outsourcing everything in addition to not working. I'll grant that those people might be lazy (or maybe they are building a business you don't know about, or caring for an elderly parent, or have a disability, as others on this thread have pointed out). But most SAHPs are just doing all the stuff that working parents either outsource or squeeze into the hours between when the finish work and fall asleep. Doesn't that stuff have value? If it didn't, you wouldn't do it.

PP here. The SAHMs having full time, permanent (not just when the kids are little) outside help is what I notice. Hard to say that is not lazy.

I am a SAHM with lots of help (not full time though, even I cannot afford that). Kids are NT and grown. Lazy? Maybe. DH and kids don't mind. Anybody who knows me IRL does not mind. What should I do? Clean the 4000sqft house by myself? Clean the pool myself? Do landscaping myself? Or make my DH do it when he comes back from work? That is ridiculous! It is clear that this is just SES-jealousy.

+1. I like you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that focusing on whether or not that SAHMs of school-aged kids are making a bad choice is the wrong way to think about OP’s issue. It actually doesn’t matter. The issue is that OP is apparently having an outsized reaction to things that don’t impact her and that she can’t do anything about. People make terrible decisions all the time, and it’s important to notice when our reaction to those decisions are having a negative impact on our lives. Those reactions tell us about ourselves and might point to something in our life that we could actually change and make better.

I have had to work through this with a therapist. I used to ruminate in the shower about the way that some husbands treated their wives and this sort of got me down, even though my husband is amazing! And I didnt have this intense reaction to hearing about things that were objectively worse. Talking with my therapist, I realized that when I heard about men treating their wives badly, it subconsciously reminded me of my mom complaining of my dad treating her badly and sort of got me in that same headspace. I think I was ultimately a little unsure about my husband’s love and commitment for me. I worked on how to feel more secure in my marriage and on accepting the fact that life is always uncertain. Just thinking “well maybe these wives are exaggerating how bad it was” wouldn’t have helped.

Op - this is maybe it.
I think I was brought up and educated to believe that everyone should be contributing to society and that doing ‘nothing’ all day is inherently ‘less than’. So I have worked SO hard to fulfil that ‘destiny’ - and done work in politics and ngos and news and on campaigns etc. but I’m also tired so it’s like my trigger is my exhaustion and stress fighting with what my parents and very expensive private school raised me to think was ‘correct’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

I find this take rather sad. I'm happy for you, and others, to be wrong about me because it's never about me.

I also find it illogical. What is "value." Also, when it is appropriate to stop working? What if someone is fired or laid off? What if someone gets more done in 4 hours than someone does in 8? Why are you or anyone else the arbiter?

Perfectionism is toxic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op - some good answers in here…
I think some of it is jealousy - NOT of not working at all (I was so depressed) but of the time flexibility.
I just don’t think i could possibly get that flex unless I start my own thing and I’m too highly comped to take that leap

Do you think it's guilt at all? You said you were depressed when you stayed home. Did you feel guilty about that depression? Like you should have felt fulfilled in the role of SAH mother and spouse? That could play into it too. Now when you see happy go lucky SAH parents, it angers you that they could take on that role without burden.

Op - maybe! I definitely felt like I had to ‘do it all’ and cut way down on help to justify not working and that was so grueling and not fun - so I did feel guilty

[Anonymous]

I think it's hard for women not to feel guilt regardless of the choice they make in this area. Working moms may feel they're not super moms, while SAHMs may have pangs related to identity. I think occasional pangs of jealousy on both sides are perfectly normal. I especially think it's normal if you're stuck in the grind of a double shift, and are very tired, to feel some envy toward those who are better rested and able to enjoy substantially more leisure time. Especially if work is more of a necessity than a (mostly) fulfilling choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Judge away but you have no idea why people make the choices they do. Maybe one spouse works tons of hours with no flexibility and the family prefers one person to stay home. Maybe some people judge those who outsource everything and act like it’s the same as staying home. There are people who think that’s poor behavior, too. Maybe some people actually like a lower key lifestyle and accept the financial hits that come from that. Maybe some people have family issues/illnesses that you know nothing about. Lots of times those are the ones who do the most outward posting. Bottom line is different things work for different people.

Like I said, there is plenty of grey area. And I tend to not judge where I don't have adequate visibility. But I know plenty of SAHP - mostly moms - who are sitting on expensive educations that they've never really used because they favor lattes and yoga instead of work.

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Okay loser, no one cares about your judgment.

I hope they don't. I'm certainly not broadcasting it to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

That’s just ridiculous. There are many ways to contribute to society. When I stayed at home, I volunteered a great deal. I do think this kind of rigid thinking and judgment is rooted in something else. I don’t think PP is merely a jerk.

What you've described is exactly what I've described. You're defending yourself by detailing substantial volunteer work - which tells me that you also value people who contribute to society instead of sitting on their asses. Sounds like we're of the same mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Judge away but you have no idea why people make the choices they do. Maybe one spouse works tons of hours with no flexibility and the family prefers one person to stay home. Maybe some people judge those who outsource everything and act like it’s the same as staying home. There are people who think that’s poor behavior, too. Maybe some people actually like a lower key lifestyle and accept the financial hits that come from that. Maybe some people have family issues/illnesses that you know nothing about. Lots of times those are the ones who do the most outward posting. Bottom line is different things work for different people.

Like I said, there is plenty of grey area. And I tend to not judge where I don't have adequate visibility. But I know plenty of SAHP - mostly moms - who are sitting on expensive educations that they've never really used because they favor lattes and yoga instead of work.

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Okay loser, no one cares about your judgment.

I hope they don't. I'm certainly not broadcasting it to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

That’s just ridiculous. There are many ways to contribute to society. When I stayed at home, I volunteered a great deal. I do think this kind of rigid thinking and judgment is rooted in something else. I don’t think PP is merely a jerk.

What you've described is exactly what I've described. You're defending yourself by detailing substantial volunteer work - which tells me that you also value people who contribute to society instead of sitting on their asses. Sounds like we're of the same mind.

If a life of leisure makes them happy, why do you care? Care about your own choices. I find work fulfilling and don't enjoy too much time in the house. Life is short, to each her own!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

PP here.

It's a good question. It can be hard and sometimes something can slip - laundry piles up, you grab take-out instead of cooking, you don't change the sheets as often as you used to. Your life will evolve to reflect your priorities. Ultimately, though, I think it's the corollary to Parkinson's Law which says work expands to fill the time allotted. Work can also compress to fill less time.

But I know that's not a helpful answer, even if it's the right one. More tactically, you need to find the support structures that help you. We never had a nanny, but we did use our school's after-school care through elementary. We shared transportation duties with other parents. Etc, etc. But, if I'm honest, for us the two biggest things have been 1) having a short commute and 2) having at least one spouse with a flexible job. Those two elements make us lucky, but I've seen plenty of parents make it work without those advantages.

+1 I will say the only actual jealousy I ever feel is toward those who have parents around who help with the kids. Those are the dual income parents who have it all imo!

PP. Totally agreed.

[Anonymous]

Kim please

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kim please

I think if you’ve hustled for so long - non hustlers seem totally bizarre. It’s obv not the money for her alone

[Anonymous]

Yes! I think I'm in a similar life-place to you, OP. People who are just straight up wealthy don't bother me as much as 1) SAHM in rocky marriages who would be in a precarious position if divorced, 2) single middle aged women who stopped working with no visible means of support and complain about not having enough money, 3) single middle aged women who have some ridiculous rich-lady side hustle but no real job who complain about not having enough money, 4) divorced women who are in constant battles over child support but continue to rely on their ex rather than developing a strategy to make enough money to provide for themselves. In all cases these are smart, capable people with college degrees.

I think I get upset because I work hard out of fear that I'll end up living in a van down by the river and I have a weird resentment of women who don't react to their financial distress by buckling down and getting a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that focusing on whether or not that SAHMs of school-aged kids are making a bad choice is the wrong way to think about OP’s issue. It actually doesn’t matter. The issue is that OP is apparently having an outsized reaction to things that don’t impact her and that she can’t do anything about. People make terrible decisions all the time, and it’s important to notice when our reaction to those decisions are having a negative impact on our lives. Those reactions tell us about ourselves and might point to something in our life that we could actually change and make better.

I have had to work through this with a therapist. I used to ruminate in the shower about the way that some husbands treated their wives and this sort of got me down, even though my husband is amazing! And I didnt have this intense reaction to hearing about things that were objectively worse. Talking with my therapist, I realized that when I heard about men treating their wives badly, it subconsciously reminded me of my mom complaining of my dad treating her badly and sort of got me in that same headspace. I think I was ultimately a little unsure about my husband’s love and commitment for me. I worked on how to feel more secure in my marriage and on accepting the fact that life is always uncertain. Just thinking “well maybe these wives are exaggerating how bad it was” wouldn’t have helped.

Op - this is maybe it.
I think I was brought up and educated to believe that everyone should be contributing to society and that doing ‘nothing’ all day is inherently ‘less than’. So I have worked SO hard to fulfil that ‘destiny’ - and done work in politics and ngos and news and on campaigns etc. but I’m also tired so it’s like my trigger is my exhaustion and stress fighting with what my parents and very expensive private school raised me to think was ‘correct’

I’m one of the PPs, and newly SAH with school age kids. This was it for me, too. My parents revere and respect work and really imparted that to us. I get contributing to society. I worked almost continuously from 15-40 and also had some kids! You have contributed. You are still contributing if you’re bringing up kids and I bet you have decades left of useful healthy life in front of you and will do more work for the benefit of society, however you define it. It’s ok to be at leisure, too. If you think about it, so much human endeavor is about making life easier, more efficient, and more comfortable for people so that in theory we CAN enjoy leisure. But for some reason, instead of taking advantage of all those efficiencies and labor saving technology, we make ourselves work more.

You don’t owe society or capitalism your labor. Nothing wrong with taking some time to enjoy if you can afford it (which all that working and saving allowed me to do).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Judge away but you have no idea why people make the choices they do. Maybe one spouse works tons of hours with no flexibility and the family prefers one person to stay home. Maybe some people judge those who outsource everything and act like it’s the same as staying home. There are people who think that’s poor behavior, too. Maybe some people actually like a lower key lifestyle and accept the financial hits that come from that. Maybe some people have family issues/illnesses that you know nothing about. Lots of times those are the ones who do the most outward posting. Bottom line is different things work for different people.

Like I said, there is plenty of grey area. And I tend to not judge where I don't have adequate visibility. But I know plenty of SAHP - mostly moms - who are sitting on expensive educations that they've never really used because they favor lattes and yoga instead of work.

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Okay loser, no one cares about your judgment.

I hope they don't. I'm certainly not broadcasting it to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

That’s just ridiculous. There are many ways to contribute to society. When I stayed at home, I volunteered a great deal. I do think this kind of rigid thinking and judgment is rooted in something else. I don’t think PP is merely a jerk.

What you've described is exactly what I've described. You're defending yourself by detailing substantial volunteer work - which tells me that you also value people who contribute to society instead of sitting on their asses. Sounds like we're of the same mind.

If a life of leisure makes them happy, why do you care? Care about your own choices. I find work fulfilling and don't enjoy too much time in the house. Life is short, to each her own!

Because that's not how society works. There are no impactless decisions - our lives are all complexly intertwined. And we shouldn't look kindly upon those who take without contributing.