Women expecting other women to be in charge of all holidays/logistics/family dynamics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did none of these older women have jobs? I was born in 1986 and NONE of the women in my family had jobs but I thought we were an anomaly. How exhausting to be trying to work and also be expected to coordinate a gourmet meal (and there better not be any subpar stuffing.)

OP here. I was born in 1979 and plenty of my mom’s peers had jobs, including my mom, but it’s like they still have this ingrained homemaking servitude chip embedded in them. My dad does no holiday prep or planning, no meal prep or planning, doesn’t even buy cards and gifts for his own sister. I can recall holidays where my brother was allowed to stay at the table while my sister and I were expected to clear the table. I don’t get it, I really don’t.

I think because if it was left to the majority of men nothing would happen. Seriously. My husband doesn't care about Thanksgiving or Easter dinners. If it were up to him, he would just find someplace that has takeout. Same with special holiday traditions for the kids. I do care about it though. So there it is.

It's this. I overheard a dad talking at the end of the season sports game yesterday about the coach gift. Another dad asked something about it, and the first dad said something like "dads never sit around and decide that what the coach really needs is a gift." Probably the dad coach didn't care either. But, one of the moms got a text chain going to solicit funds for the coach gift to all the other moms. Women bring this on themselves. They decide things need to happen and then are left to make them happen. When men often don't even care if they happen at all.

+2. My husband would be perfectly happy with pizza for Thanksgiving dinner and that’s what he’d plan if he was in charge.

+3

We wouldn’t be celebrating any holidays if it was up to DH. I feel bad for his family bc he doesn’t send cards or gifts, rarely calls, rarely visits.
When we do visit, he makes plans in his head but doesn’t share them with anyone and the is surprised when his family makes different plans.

[Anonymous]

How do you get your sons to grow up, caring and wanting to be involved in family holidays and relationships?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you get your sons to grow up, caring and wanting to be involved in family holidays and relationships?

You model for them that that’s what men do. You don’t “rescue” DH by sending his mom a Mother’s Day gift. About two weeks before Mother’s Day, you make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, what are you planning to get your mom for Mother’s Day? If you need help with ideas, I can give you some, but make sure you put the order in with enough time for it to arrive by Sunday the 12th.”

You make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, we’ll be with my family for Thanksgiving this year; what are your plans with your family for Christmas? Have you called your sister yet to make a plan? I’d be happy to help cook and bake whatever, but let me know what the plans are so I can get my shopping and cooking done.”

Etc. Just make it a natural part of family dialogue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did none of these older women have jobs? I was born in 1986 and NONE of the women in my family had jobs but I thought we were an anomaly. How exhausting to be trying to work and also be expected to coordinate a gourmet meal (and there better not be any subpar stuffing.)

OP here. I was born in 1979 and plenty of my mom’s peers had jobs, including my mom, but it’s like they still have this ingrained homemaking servitude chip embedded in them. My dad does no holiday prep or planning, no meal prep or planning, doesn’t even buy cards and gifts for his own sister. I can recall holidays where my brother was allowed to stay at the table while my sister and I were expected to clear the table. I don’t get it, I really don’t.

I think because if it was left to the majority of men nothing would happen. Seriously. My husband doesn't care about Thanksgiving or Easter dinners. If it were up to him, he would just find someplace that has takeout. Same with special holiday traditions for the kids. I do care about it though. So there it is.

It's this. I overheard a dad talking at the end of the season sports game yesterday about the coach gift. Another dad asked something about it, and the first dad said something like "dads never sit around and decide that what the coach really needs is a gift." Probably the dad coach didn't care either. But, one of the moms got a text chain going to solicit funds for the coach gift to all the other moms. Women bring this on themselves. They decide things need to happen and then are left to make them happen. When men often don't even care if they happen at all.

+2. My husband would be perfectly happy with pizza for Thanksgiving dinner and that’s what he’d plan if he was in charge.

+3

We wouldn’t be celebrating any holidays if it was up to DH. I feel bad for his family bc he doesn’t send cards or gifts, rarely calls, rarely visits.
When we do visit, he makes plans in his head but doesn’t share them with anyone and the is surprised when his family makes different plans.

Wait, based on the subsequent comments, i can't tell if people think the dad's in the "coach gift" story up thread is support of the idea that "if we left things to men, the world would fall apart" or "men have the right idea". I read it and thought, yeah men have the right idea, and women make work up that is so dumb and unnecessary and then complain about it. The coach gift - and needing to set up a fund, and get everyone to contribute then send it to the coach.... that is a colossal dumb waste of time and 20 years ago, no one - women nor men - was wasting time with stuff like that. And then you add 5 minutes of time waste to every parent on the team, who has to now figure out whatever dumb app it is to make a contribution. So i read that "coach gift" story as a perfect example of men having the right idea, and the world will in fact continue to turn if we don't do all these dumb tasks.

But i'm fascinated - it looks like some of you saw it as evidence of the opposite?

[Anonymous]

Well those that care do the most. Truthfully if women did not step up the holidays would be take out food. Nothing wrong with it but most women do not want this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wait, based on the subsequent comments, i can't tell if people think the dad's in the "coach gift" story up thread is support of the idea that "if we left things to men, the world would fall apart" or "men have the right idea". I read it and thought, yeah men have the right idea, and women make work up that is so dumb and unnecessary and then complain about it. The coach gift - and needing to set up a fund, and get everyone to contribute then send it to the coach.... that is a colossal dumb waste of time and 20 years ago, no one - women nor men - was wasting time with stuff like that. And then you add 5 minutes of time waste to every parent on the team, who has to now figure out whatever dumb app it is to make a contribution. So i read that "coach gift" story as a perfect example of men having the right idea, and the world will in fact continue to turn if we don't do all these dumb tasks.

But i'm fascinated - it looks like some of you saw it as evidence of the opposite?

No, I'm a woman and I'm with the men on some of these things. I think a bunch of stuff is made up make work. Especially at school. Coaches gifts aside (these are easy now because of Venmo), I keep things simple. No elaborate schedules or spreadsheets. We alternate years for celebrations (for Thanksgiving, in-laws get one year, my parents get the next). We don't buy birthday or Christmas gifts for extended family. We keep our traditions simple. We buy store bought or easy to put together things to contribute (i.e. I'll send DH to buy a pie from a bakery instead of cooking one).

My husband has always been in charge of his own family. His gifts for his parents are embarrassing (once he got everything from a gas station), but oh well. They know they're from him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well those that care do the most. Truthfully if women did not step up the holidays would be take out food. Nothing wrong with it but most women do not want this.

Yes, I genuinely care about our own stuff in our immediate family. I enjoy doing the planning too. If I didn't enjoy it, I would scale back completely. Traditions don't have to mean going all out. Our Christmas Day tradition has always been easy appetizer food. The kids love it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did none of these older women have jobs? I was born in 1986 and NONE of the women in my family had jobs but I thought we were an anomaly. How exhausting to be trying to work and also be expected to coordinate a gourmet meal (and there better not be any subpar stuffing.)

OP here. I was born in 1979 and plenty of my mom’s peers had jobs, including my mom, but it’s like they still have this ingrained homemaking servitude chip embedded in them. My dad does no holiday prep or planning, no meal prep or planning, doesn’t even buy cards and gifts for his own sister. I can recall holidays where my brother was allowed to stay at the table while my sister and I were expected to clear the table. I don’t get it, I really don’t.

I think because if it was left to the majority of men nothing would happen. Seriously. My husband doesn't care about Thanksgiving or Easter dinners. If it were up to him, he would just find someplace that has takeout. Same with special holiday traditions for the kids. I do care about it though. So there it is.

It's this. I overheard a dad talking at the end of the season sports game yesterday about the coach gift. Another dad asked something about it, and the first dad said something like "dads never sit around and decide that what the coach really needs is a gift." Probably the dad coach didn't care either. But, one of the moms got a text chain going to solicit funds for the coach gift to all the other moms. Women bring this on themselves. They decide things need to happen and then are left to make them happen. When men often don't even care if they happen at all.

+2. My husband would be perfectly happy with pizza for Thanksgiving dinner and that’s what he’d plan if he was in charge.

+3

We wouldn’t be celebrating any holidays if it was up to DH. I feel bad for his family bc he doesn’t send cards or gifts, rarely calls, rarely visits.
When we do visit, he makes plans in his head but doesn’t share them with anyone and the is surprised when his family makes different plans.

What's wrong with pizza for Thanksgiving? My kids are older teens now and things are a lot easier but, back in the day, I dropped the rope on the traditional meal because it just wasn't worth it. We first did the pre-made meals from Cracker Barrel/Wegmans/etc. and have added Chinese into the mix. It's not a total dropping of the rope but me being kinder to myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did none of these older women have jobs? I was born in 1986 and NONE of the women in my family had jobs but I thought we were an anomaly. How exhausting to be trying to work and also be expected to coordinate a gourmet meal (and there better not be any subpar stuffing.)

OP here. I was born in 1979 and plenty of my mom’s peers had jobs, including my mom, but it’s like they still have this ingrained homemaking servitude chip embedded in them. My dad does no holiday prep or planning, no meal prep or planning, doesn’t even buy cards and gifts for his own sister. I can recall holidays where my brother was allowed to stay at the table while my sister and I were expected to clear the table. I don’t get it, I really don’t.

I think because if it was left to the majority of men nothing would happen. Seriously. My husband doesn't care about Thanksgiving or Easter dinners. If it were up to him, he would just find someplace that has takeout. Same with special holiday traditions for the kids. I do care about it though. So there it is.

It's this. I overheard a dad talking at the end of the season sports game yesterday about the coach gift. Another dad asked something about it, and the first dad said something like "dads never sit around and decide that what the coach really needs is a gift." Probably the dad coach didn't care either. But, one of the moms got a text chain going to solicit funds for the coach gift to all the other moms. Women bring this on themselves. They decide things need to happen and then are left to make them happen. When men often don't even care if they happen at all.

+2. My husband would be perfectly happy with pizza for Thanksgiving dinner and that’s what he’d plan if he was in charge.

+3

We wouldn’t be celebrating any holidays if it was up to DH. I feel bad for his family bc he doesn’t send cards or gifts, rarely calls, rarely visits.
When we do visit, he makes plans in his head but doesn’t share them with anyone and the is surprised when his family makes different plans.

What's wrong with pizza for Thanksgiving? My kids are older teens now and things are a lot easier but, back in the day, I dropped the rope on the traditional meal because it just wasn't worth it. We first did the pre-made meals from Cracker Barrel/Wegmans/etc. and have added Chinese into the mix. It's not a total dropping of the rope but me being kinder to myself.

DP. There nothing with any of that unless you actually love a traditional holiday meal the way you remember it from childhood. I really do appreciate family recipes and once-a-year formality, with the good china and silver, and the smell of a turkey roasting. It’s just that, in order to experience that or allow my kids to experience it, I have to be the one to do it. Which I’ve accepted. But if we all just stopped to make a point and traditions all disappeared, it would be sad to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get your sons to grow up, caring and wanting to be involved in family holidays and relationships?

You model for them that that’s what men do. You don’t “rescue” DH by sending his mom a Mother’s Day gift. About two weeks before Mother’s Day, you make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, what are you planning to get your mom for Mother’s Day? If you need help with ideas, I can give you some, but make sure you put the order in with enough time for it to arrive by Sunday the 12th.”

You make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, we’ll be with my family for Thanksgiving this year; what are your plans with your family for Christmas? Have you called your sister yet to make a plan? I’d be happy to help cook and bake whatever, but let me know what the plans are so I can get my shopping and cooking done.”

Etc. Just make it a natural part of family dialogue.

I get what you're saying but if "Ted" is one of those men who won't do a damn thing without his spouse prompting, this "natural part of family dialogue" is still expecting the woman to be in charge. Have a conversation with your spouse away from the kids about what behavior you together want to model for them.

[Anonymous]

I told my in-laws repeatedly early in our marriage that my DH and I both had large families and had agreed that he handled all holidays/gifts/thank you notes etc for his side and I would for mine. They could not wrap their minds around this and for years I’d get passive aggressive texts about all this stuff. I just ignored and forwarded to him. Sometimes he handled stuff, sometimes he wouldn’t. Yeah, they got a lot of random last minute panic purchased Harry and David gift baskets from him over the years, instead of more personal gifts, but oh well. I know they thought badly of me but it had literally zero impact bon my day to day life.

DH and I have been together nearly 30 years. The first Christmas DH and I were together in the States (we met during an overseas posting and were living together before moving back to the US), I bought things for his family because I knew I'd be the 'bad girlfriend' if his relatives got nothing. The second year, I decided I was done. I told him that his choices were to buy gifts for his relatives or let them know we'd be making a donation in their name to charity and they should do the same rather than get anything for us. He chose the donation route.

I'm sure you can imagine the blowback I got for this. It was all part of a pattern where my ILs and DH's extended family expected me to conform to their ideas (sometimes patriarchal) of what an outside female should do to be included in their family. I dropped the rope. I have my own family and friends and didn't need them. After we had kids, they extended an olive branch because DH was indifferent/disorganized and they did want to see him and the kids. Of course, they have themselves to blame because DH was taught that the women do all that stuff and it wasn't important to him.

It's not been easy to navigate this with DH's family but I'm glad I've drawn the line. I don't mind helping but I refuse to accept primary responsibility. I'm raising my kids differently but it's still hard because societal expectation are still very much gender based.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Someone in my family creates spreadsheets about holiday gatherings, camping trips, and so forth. It goes out to ALL the adults that are getting themselves there, what to bring, and what time. Everyone is contributing to it as they see needs. It's created by my cousin's husband and my cousin. The womenfolk used to do it, but about 5 or so years ago this other system was brought in and it helps so much.

I'm a longtime single mom and am used to the labor, but absolutely husbands and boyfriends should share equal burdens with their partners.

You are lucky to have them step up and do this. My family has too many chiefs and not enough indians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did none of these older women have jobs? I was born in 1986 and NONE of the women in my family had jobs but I thought we were an anomaly. How exhausting to be trying to work and also be expected to coordinate a gourmet meal (and there better not be any subpar stuffing.)

OP here. I was born in 1979 and plenty of my mom’s peers had jobs, including my mom, but it’s like they still have this ingrained homemaking servitude chip embedded in them. My dad does no holiday prep or planning, no meal prep or planning, doesn’t even buy cards and gifts for his own sister. I can recall holidays where my brother was allowed to stay at the table while my sister and I were expected to clear the table. I don’t get it, I really don’t.

I think because if it was left to the majority of men nothing would happen. Seriously. My husband doesn't care about Thanksgiving or Easter dinners. If it were up to him, he would just find someplace that has takeout. Same with special holiday traditions for the kids. I do care about it though. So there it is.

It's this. I overheard a dad talking at the end of the season sports game yesterday about the coach gift. Another dad asked something about it, and the first dad said something like "dads never sit around and decide that what the coach really needs is a gift." Probably the dad coach didn't care either. But, one of the moms got a text chain going to solicit funds for the coach gift to all the other moms. Women bring this on themselves. They decide things need to happen and then are left to make them happen. When men often don't even care if they happen at all.

+2. My husband would be perfectly happy with pizza for Thanksgiving dinner and that’s what he’d plan if he was in charge.

+3

We wouldn’t be celebrating any holidays if it was up to DH. I feel bad for his family bc he doesn’t send cards or gifts, rarely calls, rarely visits.
When we do visit, he makes plans in his head but doesn’t share them with anyone and the is surprised when his family makes different plans.

Wait, based on the subsequent comments, i can't tell if people think the dad's in the "coach gift" story up thread is support of the idea that "if we left things to men, the world would fall apart" or "men have the right idea". I read it and thought, yeah men have the right idea, and women make work up that is so dumb and unnecessary and then complain about it. The coach gift - and needing to set up a fund, and get everyone to contribute then send it to the coach.... that is a colossal dumb waste of time and 20 years ago, no one - women nor men - was wasting time with stuff like that. And then you add 5 minutes of time waste to every parent on the team, who has to now figure out whatever dumb app it is to make a contribution. So i read that "coach gift" story as a perfect example of men having the right idea, and the world will in fact continue to turn if we don't do all these dumb tasks.

But i'm fascinated - it looks like some of you saw it as evidence of the opposite?

I'm a woman and Team "men have the right idea."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you get your sons to grow up, caring and wanting to be involved in family holidays and relationships?

My sons aren't grown yet, but they're interested in family holidays and relationships. We started small. At 3 they started bringing their money to the store and buying gifts. At that age, we went to Dollar Tree and they picked out an item or two for their siblings and parents on each occasion (and actually these were some of the favorite gifts that siblings received. Like- a massive lolly pop). It's important to think about others and the things they'd like. They helped us decorate the tree, we talked about menus for Christmas and New Years and what we should make. On and on, we just involved our kids. Women do this naturally with daughters. DH can't remember ever shopping with his mom, likely because boys whined more about shopping and girls enjoyed it because they were socially conditioned to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get your sons to grow up, caring and wanting to be involved in family holidays and relationships?

You model for them that that’s what men do. You don’t “rescue” DH by sending his mom a Mother’s Day gift. About two weeks before Mother’s Day, you make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, what are you planning to get your mom for Mother’s Day? If you need help with ideas, I can give you some, but make sure you put the order in with enough time for it to arrive by Sunday the 12th.”

You make it part of dinner table conversation: “Ted, we’ll be with my family for Thanksgiving this year; what are your plans with your family for Christmas? Have you called your sister yet to make a plan? I’d be happy to help cook and bake whatever, but let me know what the plans are so I can get my shopping and cooking done.”

Etc. Just make it a natural part of family dialogue.

I get what you're saying but if "Ted" is one of those men who won't do a damn thing without his spouse prompting, this "natural part of family dialogue" is still expecting the woman to be in charge. Have a conversation with your spouse away from the kids about what behavior you together want to model for them.

+2

The previous example actually just showcases how infantilized many men are and how they are truly not ever expected to independently take the lead on gift-buying, coordinating logistics, meal planning etc for the yearly milestones.

I buy my mom flowers for Mother’s Day. I will be damned if I have to “coach” my husband into buying a damn thing for anyone. Not my job! I do enough! He was capable of earning degrees in engineering, surely he can online shop for fifteen minutes.