Excessively dependent mother still completely helpless months after dad's death

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would pay someone to come in daily with the job of teaching her to do these basic things she refuses to do and also to talk to her and be her companion. I think if you do that for awhile, with the person understanding that their job is to gradually get her to do the normal stuff on her own, then you won't have to spend all that money forever, maybe just a few months. After that you could cut back on the aide's hours to maybe just a few hours a day.

If you don't like that idea you could consider what we did with my mother when she was in her 70s and started having heart issues where she would push her alert button in the middle of the night and we had to rush over to her place or the hospital. (Turned out she needed a pacemaker.) What we did was buy a house together with mom with room enough for all of us and we (me, sister, brothers, spouses, adult kids, minor kids) all took care of mom until she died at 90. It was a privilege. And BTW we paid an aide (out of mom's money) to sit with her 8-4 M-F while we were at work toward the end of her life but family took care of her the rest of the hours.

Yes, it would be our hope that the aide could teach mom about the TV and the shower, but my fear is that she will still refuse to learn, preferring that the aide just do it. I suspect that rather than pare down the hours, we would end up increasing them to where she is attended to full-time.

I didn't fully realize how bad it was. It was masked to a large extent by the attention she was getting from the AL aides all last year, but now, two weeks into this, I see how extensive this problem is. And, she isn't stupid. She was skipped twice in school and graduated HS at age 16, and college (yes, college!) at 20. She married my father a few months later, just one week after her 21st birthday.

So it sounds like "learned helplessness" and it works for a lot of people including elderly and kids. At 88 it might be tough to unlearn it, especially since she is clearly stubborn. As smart as she is she might be able to manipulate the aide into doing everything for her, or maybe you can find an aide who is stronger than that. Neither you or your sister want her to live with you? Do you enjoy her company or are you mostly just annoyed by her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that a neutral person (the aide) will have better luck getting your mother to cooperate with her daily routine. Please be sure to let them know your mother's current behaviors. If your mom steps it up then you know she is just taking advantage of you and your sister. Best of luck. Glad you and your sister have each other.

Yes, and my sister and I have often thanked each other for helping one another, as this has brought us quite close. Previous to this, we didn't have a lot of contact. Just holiday family get-togetherness.

[Anonymous]

OP talk to the social worker at the new place in addition to the staff. Even though it’s independent living they should have social workers. It sounds like the hospice one is a dud but usually they are wonderful.

It also sounds like she may need to switch or up her antidepressant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would pay someone to come in daily with the job of teaching her to do these basic things she refuses to do and also to talk to her and be her companion. I think if you do that for awhile, with the person understanding that their job is to gradually get her to do the normal stuff on her own, then you won't have to spend all that money forever, maybe just a few months. After that you could cut back on the aide's hours to maybe just a few hours a day.

If you don't like that idea you could consider what we did with my mother when she was in her 70s and started having heart issues where she would push her alert button in the middle of the night and we had to rush over to her place or the hospital. (Turned out she needed a pacemaker.) What we did was buy a house together with mom with room enough for all of us and we (me, sister, brothers, spouses, adult kids, minor kids) all took care of mom until she died at 90. It was a privilege. And BTW we paid an aide (out of mom's money) to sit with her 8-4 M-F while we were at work toward the end of her life but family took care of her the rest of the hours.

Yes, it would be our hope that the aide could teach mom about the TV and the shower, but my fear is that she will still refuse to learn, preferring that the aide just do it. I suspect that rather than pare down the hours, we would end up increasing them to where she is attended to full-time.


I didn't fully realize how bad it was. It was masked to a large extent by the attention she was getting from the AL aides all last year, but now, two weeks into this, I see how extensive this problem is. And, she isn't stupid. She was skipped twice in school and graduated HS at age 16, and college (yes, college!) at 20. She married my father a few months later, just one week after her 21st birthday.

So it sounds like "learned helplessness" and it works for a lot of people including elderly and kids. At 88 it might be tough to unlearn it, especially since she is clearly stubborn. As smart as she is she might be able to manipulate the aide into doing everything for her, or maybe you can find an aide who is stronger than that. Neither you or your sister want her to live with you? Do you enjoy her company or are you mostly just annoyed by her?

We enjoy her company in relatively short doses, especially if we are at a restaurant and nothing is required of me. I even took her on a short trip earlier this year so she could have some R & R. But she did require constant supervision and help with all tasks. I could not maintain that on a permanent, 24/7 basis in my house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously there is a to of resentment from OP and sister towards mom. I get that though if mom was never able to be involved really in parenting given her inability to do anything independently, that is going to leave scars.

I think you have to be careful though to not take that resentment out on her now that she is vulnerable and OP and sister have control over her life and her finances. Since mom can't make decisions, OP and sister are making them all for her but through a lens of being very frustrated and hurt by having had a helpless parent.

I think you need a neutral party here - maybe an adult social worker who can help advocate for what mom needs, what her limits and abilities are, what reasonable expectations are, what supports she needs and that person can stay in regular contact to see how she is doing.

There is no way Op and sister can be that person given their anger and resentment and disappointment in their mother as a person, a wife, a mother etc. it would be better for them to step back from the decision making and just visit and be her daughters and have someone else who doesn't have financial interest or childhood hurt / pain be her advocate.

OMG. The woman has been there for TWO weeks and her dutiful daughters are in regular contact with Mom. Give the woman time to adjust to her new environment before you start berating the way Op and her sister are handling things. You sound just perfectly awful, tbh.

Op says (top of page 2)
"My sister is very angry as well. We just paid $1300 to move my mother to the new apartment, and my sister took two additional days off from work to help set the place up. I arrived a few days later, after shopping for all her new needs, and completed the job, including hanging up pictures."

They are both angry with their mother. They are resentful of having "helped" her (not based on moms wants) and are upset they gave time and energy to their mother. They are very resentful. It isn't clear if they are paying for moms accommodations or if mom has her own money.

You give someone something they don't want and then get mad they don't immediately like it and act appreciative. That isn't the sign of someone who can be an advocate. These two women have decades of anger and resentment. It may be justifiable if mom has always just been a helpless passive figure - but it doesn't make them good advocates.

NP. Wow, you sound crazy and are making a bunch of assumptions. OP, ignore this poster, they are just trying to stir up trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP talk to the social worker at the new place in addition to the staff. Even though it’s independent living they should have social workers. It sounds like the hospice one is a dud but usually they are wonderful.

It also sounds like she may need to switch or up her antidepressant.

Will do; thanks.

[Anonymous]

It's so funny because so many of us struggle with parents who REFUSE assistance, and here you have the opposite problem! Nothing is easy .


Do get straight on power of attorney stuff - it may be her right to move back into the other apartment, but not your obligation to help organize it if you don't think it's the right thing.


Is there a daytime activity room, or a group day program she could join? That might be a good option that you can fill in around with regular but not full time aide shifts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously there is a to of resentment from OP and sister towards mom. I get that though if mom was never able to be involved really in parenting given her inability to do anything independently, that is going to leave scars.

I think you have to be careful though to not take that resentment out on her now that she is vulnerable and OP and sister have control over her life and her finances. Since mom can't make decisions, OP and sister are making them all for her but through a lens of being very frustrated and hurt by having had a helpless parent.

I think you need a neutral party here - maybe an adult social worker who can help advocate for what mom needs, what her limits and abilities are, what reasonable expectations are, what supports she needs and that person can stay in regular contact to see how she is doing.

There is no way Op and sister can be that person given their anger and resentment and disappointment in their mother as a person, a wife, a mother etc. it would be better for them to step back from the decision making and just visit and be her daughters and have someone else who doesn't have financial interest or childhood hurt / pain be her advocate.

OMG. The woman has been there for TWO weeks and her dutiful daughters are in regular contact with Mom. Give the woman time to adjust to her new environment before you start berating the way Op and her sister are handling things. You sound just perfectly awful, tbh.

Op says (top of page 2)
"My sister is very angry as well. We just paid $1300 to move my mother to the new apartment, and my sister took two additional days off from work to help set the place up. I arrived a few days later, after shopping for all her new needs, and completed the job, including hanging up pictures."

They are both angry with their mother. They are resentful of having "helped" her (not based on moms wants) and are upset they gave time and energy to their mother. They are very resentful. It isn't clear if they are paying for moms accommodations or if mom has her own money.

You give someone something they don't want and then get mad they don't immediately like it and act appreciative. That isn't the sign of someone who can be an advocate. These two women have decades of anger and resentment. It may be justifiable if mom has always just been a helpless passive figure - but it doesn't make them good advocates.

NP. Wow, you sound crazy and are making a bunch of assumptions. OP, ignore this poster, they are just trying to stir up trouble.

OP here, and yes....I'll ignore. There have been a few nasty posters, but most have been extraordinarily helpful, with great suggestions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's so funny because so many of us struggle with parents who REFUSE assistance, and here you have the opposite problem! Nothing is easy .


Do get straight on power of attorney stuff - it may be her right to move back into the other apartment, but not your obligation to help organize it if you don't think it's the right thing.


Is there a daytime activity room, or a group day program she could join? That might be a good option that you can fill in around with regular but not full time aide shifts.

Yes, we have POA, but that just means we can ALSO handle things for her. It doesn't mean she CANNOT do things. She is free to make her own arrangements to move back into assisted living - which would entail phoning them to discuss it (she can't do that) and arranging for movers (can't do that, either).

And yes, this new place has wonderful activities. They have concerts (local stuff, sorta crappy, but still....), outings to shows and restaurants, a book club, daily movies, all sorts of "word games" after breakfast, and they even have an exercise room with daily classes. They also have a library. I have encouraged her to do all that, but she says she wouldn't know where in the building to find them. I actually got a map of the facility (it's all one big building) and marked "exercise room, 11:00 a.m. daily", "lounge for book club, Mondays at 2 pm", that type of thing. But she has said the map is too confusing and that she would be lost unless someone escorts her. (That is where the aide will come in.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's so funny because so many of us struggle with parents who REFUSE assistance, and here you have the opposite problem! Nothing is easy .


Do get straight on power of attorney stuff - it may be her right to move back into the other apartment, but not your obligation to help organize it if you don't think it's the right thing.


Is there a daytime activity room, or a group day program she could join? That might be a good option that you can fill in around with regular but not full time aide shifts.

Yes, we have POA, but that just means we can ALSO handle things for her. It doesn't mean she CANNOT do things. She is free to make her own arrangements to move back into assisted living - which would entail phoning them to discuss it (she can't do that) and arranging for movers (can't do that, either).

And yes, this new place has wonderful activities. They have concerts (local stuff, sorta crappy, but still....), outings to shows and restaurants, a book club, daily movies, all sorts of "word games" after breakfast, and they even have an exercise room with daily classes. They also have a library. I have encouraged her to do all that, but she says she wouldn't know where in the building to find them. I actually got a map of the facility (it's all one big building) and marked "exercise room, 11:00 a.m. daily", "lounge for book club, Mondays at 2 pm", that type of thing. But she has said the map is too confusing and that she would be lost unless someone escorts her. (That is where the aide will come in.)

My son is in a band and they have recently starting playing at nursing homes and places like where your mom is. He said he was reluctant at first but after a few gigs they are having so much fun, he says it's just awesome to see how the folks respond to the music. Don't underestimate the power of this. His band is local and perhaps "crappy" to some but they do the gigs for free and fun is had by all.

It sounds like when your mom says she "can't" do something she is really saying "Man I miss your dad!" My mom was very smart (like your mom) but also very independent until she became elderly and when she was in her late 80s we did pretty much everything for her. Took over her bills, took over putting her meds in the reminder container each week, fixed all her meals, made phone calls for her, dealt with doctors, took her where she needed to go, looked up stuff on the internet for her, cleaned whatever needed cleaning, etc. She did not have dementia but she was tired all the time and did not have a lot of motivation to do for herself anymore. Seems kind of normal at that age. Maybe not for everyone, but for a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's so funny because so many of us struggle with parents who REFUSE assistance, and here you have the opposite problem! Nothing is easy .


Do get straight on power of attorney stuff - it may be her right to move back into the other apartment, but not your obligation to help organize it if you don't think it's the right thing.


Is there a daytime activity room, or a group day program she could join? That might be a good option that you can fill in around with regular but not full time aide shifts.

Yes, we have POA, but that just means we can ALSO handle things for her. It doesn't mean she CANNOT do things. She is free to make her own arrangements to move back into assisted living - which would entail phoning them to discuss it (she can't do that) and arranging for movers (can't do that, either).

And yes, this new place has wonderful activities. They have concerts (local stuff, sorta crappy, but still....), outings to shows and restaurants, a book club, daily movies, all sorts of "word games" after breakfast, and they even have an exercise room with daily classes. They also have a library. I have encouraged her to do all that, but she says she wouldn't know where in the building to find them. I actually got a map of the facility (it's all one big building) and marked "exercise room, 11:00 a.m. daily", "lounge for book club, Mondays at 2 pm", that type of thing. But she has said the map is too confusing and that she would be lost unless someone escorts her. (That is where the aide will come in.)

Definitely talk to the staff at the facility. I'll be there are some very sweet residents there who would be more than happy to show your mom the ropes. It's only been two weeks and this is a big change for her. Be patient, Op. And if I could give that hospice social worker the bird I would do it for you - what a nervy broad she is! But maybe hospice workers are trained to think only in the short term, whereas, you and your sister are also thinking of what this means for your mom's future, too...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I am sending you endless support and encouragement here. My hear goes out to you and I relate. I have been through so much hell with my parents and sometimes positing here you get the trolls who have no empathy.

I would report that social worker to her licensure board and at the very least ask to speak to her supervisor immediately as she is doing harm and has the potential to do harm to other. She is poorly trained to deal with the very complex issues that comes with sandwich generation issues and she clearly has no empathy or understanding of the situation. That SW needs supervision promptly and she needs to be taken off the case.

You had her evaluated and the doctor said no signs of dementia. is that correct? This was just recently, right? I assume many meds have been tried with her to no avail? At one point one of my parents was put on adderall with zoloft so she can manage and it helped for a while.

I might get a case manager involved at the agency you hire the aides. A good one can work well with all parties to mediate and move things forward.

Also, if she goes into assisted living, what do they do when she runs out money? I would find out exactly and see how you feel about that. She many not even live to see that happen. There is absolutely no reason to use your own money on her retirement.

Yes, please do report that social worker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I am sending you endless support and encouragement here. My hear goes out to you and I relate. I have been through so much hell with my parents and sometimes positing here you get the trolls who have no empathy.

I would report that social worker to her licensure board and at the very least ask to speak to her supervisor immediately as she is doing harm and has the potential to do harm to other. She is poorly trained to deal with the very complex issues that comes with sandwich generation issues and she clearly has no empathy or understanding of the situation. That SW needs supervision promptly and she needs to be taken off the case.

You had her evaluated and the doctor said no signs of dementia. is that correct? This was just recently, right? I assume many meds have been tried with her to no avail? At one point one of my parents was put on adderall with zoloft so she can manage and it helped for a while.

I might get a case manager involved at the agency you hire the aides. A good one can work well with all parties to mediate and move things forward.

Also, if she goes into assisted living, what do they do when she runs out money? I would find out exactly and see how you feel about that. She many not even live to see that happen. There is absolutely no reason to use your own money on her retirement.

Thank you so much for your support.

Yes, I want to get rid of that social worker. From what I understand, hospice (including the "after") is intended to support all grieving family members, not make demands on the adult children to put their needs aside and devote themselves fully to the mother's demands, no matter how unrealistic.

Also yes, we had her evaluated and the neurologist said no sign of dementia based on test, although he did acknowledge to me that she is behaving as though she has it. We also had a brain scan, and the doctor said it was normal for a woman her age. The full neurology test was about three years ago, but she has had three or four "minis" since then. I am always amazed when they tell me how well my mother scores. Our last "mini" was last month, before we moved her to the new facility,

And yes, she has been on an anti-depressant for more than 30 years. I see it as a chicken-and-eff type thing. Is she depressed because she is so dependent (she married my father at 21) or is she so dependent because she is depressed?

And to answer your question: The assisted living place where she lived with my dad kicks people out once they run out of money. Then it would be Medicaid at a Medicaid facility or start dipping into my own old age funds. I will be very resentful at that point if my mother depleted her savings by moving to assisted living prematurely, and then putting my own future at risk. This will also cause a big rift with my sister, who feels we must support my mother til the end and keep her off Medicaid.

Responding back. OK, so dementia ruled out for now. Has she been on the SAME antidepressant for 30 years. If so, may be time to experiment with different ones.

As others have said it is truly amazing how well you and your sister work together. My sister has been difficult to work with to say the least. I hear you about the two of you differing with assiste4d living and using your own funds and I am on your side-don't ever do it! So, it sounds like you need her to stay in independent as long as possible. I agree with your decision to get a different social worker. Keep trying to find staff members who can be helpful with the situation. if they are helpful, don't just thank them, but tell them you want to share with their supervisor how amazing they are and do it. When I did this I was told nobody ever reports the positive-just complaints and I made a few people cry tears of joy. it may make people want to do even more to help and it will help them take you seriously when you complain about the hospice social worker.

I have to say neutral parties (for us case managers) made all the difference (the good ones). They are trained to talk to the elderly in a way that is comforting but that also gets them complying. Plus, they are not family so our parents respond differently and may be more open to hearing things. Great idea to have occupational therapist work on skills of independent living. My parents are contenders for the most difficult elderly award and a good case manager was able to move things along.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like she has a significant impairment/mental health disorder that she's had her whole life but the extent of it is becoming clear now your dad and the aides aren't there to compensate.

I don't think her intelligence or her lack of dementia or the idea of "learned helplessness" are all that relevant to whatever this is. People don't become unable to throw out trash because someone else did it for them for years; there's something bigger going on (OCD and anxiety and something else?) and whatever set of issues are at play aren't going to go away now.

I don't have good advice, just sympathy. I think solutions are more likely to lie with a psychiatrist than an OT, but it's going to be tough.

[Anonymous]

It may be an attention thing. The more help she requires the more attention she gets. She's not more self sufficient because there is nothing in it for her to be more self sufficient. As long as she can get others to do for her, she will keep on demanding that kind of attention.

There is a chance that when she gets around other 80/90 year old women who are doing basic things for themselves and she becomes friends with those ladies, Mom will suddenly want to be competent like her friends are.

I would step back and see how things go.