Excessively dependent mother still completely helpless months after dad's death

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously there is a to of resentment from OP and sister towards mom. I get that though if mom was never able to be involved really in parenting given her inability to do anything independently, that is going to leave scars.

I think you have to be careful though to not take that resentment out on her now that she is vulnerable and OP and sister have control over her life and her finances. Since mom can't make decisions, OP and sister are making them all for her but through a lens of being very frustrated and hurt by having had a helpless parent.

I think you need a neutral party here - maybe an adult social worker who can help advocate for what mom needs, what her limits and abilities are, what reasonable expectations are, what supports she needs and that person can stay in regular contact to see how she is doing.

There is no way Op and sister can be that person given their anger and resentment and disappointment in their mother as a person, a wife, a mother etc. it would be better for them to step back from the decision making and just visit and be her daughters and have someone else who doesn't have financial interest or childhood hurt / pain be her advocate.

OMG. The woman has been there for TWO weeks and her dutiful daughters are in regular contact with Mom. Give the woman time to adjust to her new environment before you start berating the way Op and her sister are handling things. You sound just perfectly awful, tbh.

Op says (top of page 2)
"My sister is very angry as well. We just paid $1300 to move my mother to the new apartment, and my sister took two additional days off from work to help set the place up. I arrived a few days later, after shopping for all her new needs, and completed the job, including hanging up pictures."

They are both angry with their mother. They are resentful of having "helped" her (not based on moms wants) and are upset they gave time and energy to their mother. They are very resentful. It isn't clear if they are paying for moms accommodations or if mom has her own money.

You give someone something they don't want and then get mad they don't immediately like it and act appreciative. That isn't the sign of someone who can be an advocate. These two women have decades of anger and resentment. It may be justifiable if mom has always just been a helpless passive figure - but it doesn't make them good advocates.

What Op and her sister are going through right now is VERY frustrating. It is also VERY typical - especially in the first few weeks of placing an elderly parent in a new environment.

You do not seem to have much, if any, experience with this. All I can tell you is that your judgement is really harsh and uncalled for.

NP. As someone who is going through something similar with MIL (though to a much lesser degree), agree 100%. OP and her sister are doing a great job (and it's agree you two seem to be on the same page and working well together, that is not always the case). What they've proposed is very reasonable. What their mother has proposed (paying hundreds of thousands to be waited on hand and foot or for OP and her sister to drop their lives (jobs, kids) to wait on her hand and foot when she is capable) is not. GL, OP.

[Anonymous]

Wait a second, OP. Growing up as a child when you were living with your mom, she never even threw her own trash away? She left her trash on the kitchen counter and waited for your dad to throw it away? When your dad was at work she literally never dialed a phone?
Is the trash can she have now the type where you step on the pedal and the kid flips up or an open one? I would tell my mom if I go over there and there is trash on the counter I am walking out the door and leaving and will come back the next day to see if it is gone. That is just ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s 88, for heaven’s sake!

If she has the money to pay for the assisted living place, let her spend it.

And if she runs out of money, what then?

Then she goes into an income based program or on medicaid in a nursing home. She's 88. She doesn't have that long to live. Put her in an independent living program where she will have the social or meals. Its unreasonable to move her alone into an apartment at that age. She probably is having memory issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait a second, OP. Growing up as a child when you were living with your mom, she never even threw her own trash away? She left her trash on the kitchen counter and waited for your dad to throw it away? When your dad was at work she literally never dialed a phone?
Is the trash can she have now the type where you step on the pedal and the kid flips up or an open one? I would tell my mom if I go over there and there is trash on the counter I am walking out the door and leaving and will come back the next day to see if it is gone. That is just ridiculous.

This makes no sense. She has to do all that. She probably has memory issues now and its not being recognized. Early stages of dementia look like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s 88, for heaven’s sake!

If she has the money to pay for the assisted living place, let her spend it.

And if she runs out of money, what then?

Then she goes into an income based program or on medicaid in a nursing home. She's 88. She doesn't have that long to live. Put her in an independent living program where she will have the social or meals. Its unreasonable to move her alone into an apartment at that age. She probably is having memory issues.

Yep, I’d do this. Let her spend her money in the place that she wants and then figure out what happens next (without spending your own retirement).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Obviously there is a to of resentment from OP and sister towards mom. I get that though if mom was never able to be involved really in parenting given her inability to do anything independently, that is going to leave scars.

I think you have to be careful though to not take that resentment out on her now that she is vulnerable and OP and sister have control over her life and her finances. Since mom can't make decisions, OP and sister are making them all for her but through a lens of being very frustrated and hurt by having had a helpless parent.

I think you need a neutral party here - maybe an adult social worker who can help advocate for what mom needs, what her limits and abilities are, what reasonable expectations are, what supports she needs and that person can stay in regular contact to see how she is doing.

There is no way Op and sister can be that person given their anger and resentment and disappointment in their mother as a person, a wife, a mother etc. it would be better for them to step back from the decision making and just visit and be her daughters and have someone else who doesn't have financial interest or childhood hurt / pain be her advocate.

OMG. The woman has been there for TWO weeks and her dutiful daughters are in regular contact with Mom. Give the woman time to adjust to her new environment before you start berating the way Op and her sister are handling things. You sound just perfectly awful, tbh.

Op says (top of page 2)
"My sister is very angry as well. We just paid $1300 to move my mother to the new apartment, and my sister took two additional days off from work to help set the place up. I arrived a few days later, after shopping for all her new needs, and completed the job, including hanging up pictures."

They are both angry with their mother. They are resentful of having "helped" her (not based on moms wants) and are upset they gave time and energy to their mother. They are very resentful. It isn't clear if they are paying for moms accommodations or if mom has her own money.

You give someone something they don't want and then get mad they don't immediately like it and act appreciative. That isn't the sign of someone who can be an advocate. These two women have decades of anger and resentment. It may be justifiable if mom has always just been a helpless passive figure - but it doesn't make them good advocates.

What Op and her sister are going through right now is VERY frustrating. It is also VERY typical - especially in the first few weeks of placing an elderly parent in a new environment.

You do not seem to have much, if any, experience with this. All I can tell you is that your judgement is really harsh and uncalled for.

NP. As someone who is going through something similar with MIL (though to a much lesser degree), agree 100%. OP and her sister are doing a great job (and it's agree you two seem to be on the same page and working well together, that is not always the case). What they've proposed is very reasonable. What their mother has proposed (paying hundreds of thousands to be waited on hand and foot or for OP and her sister to drop their lives (jobs, kids) to wait on her hand and foot when she is capable) is not. GL, OP.

OP here, and thank you. And thank you to the other posters for their encouragement.

That poster upthread castigating me is clueless. She doesn't know the half of it. And as far as Mom needing an advocate, she talked to the hospice social worker last week, after she had been in the new apartment only one week, telling her that her daughters are neglecting her. How do I know this? Because the social worker called me on the phone and said that the three-day-weekend visits are not enough for my mother, and my sister and I need to alternate longer visits. When I said that is impossible given my own responsibilities, she told me that my that my mother's needs come first. She actually told me to do "whatever my mom wants." (Hospice is helping my mother because she feels she has someone to help her get her "neglectful" daughters to pay more attention, but it is adding more angst for me and my sister.)

And I agree. It makes no sense to move my mother back into assisted living, with people with strokes and who can't speak or walk or even use the bathroom on their own, because she can't wants someone to adjust the shower temperature an change the channel - and at a cost of well over $100,000 a year. The day will come one day, I suspect, when she DOES need assisted living, but not now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s 88, for heaven’s sake!

If she has the money to pay for the assisted living place, let her spend it.

And if she runs out of money, what then?

Then she goes into an income based program or on medicaid in a nursing home. She's 88. She doesn't have that long to live. Put her in an independent living program where she will have the social or meals. Its unreasonable to move her alone into an apartment at that age. She probably is having memory issues.

She IS in an independent living situation. It's a very nice facility that includes two meals - breakfast and dinner - every day, and runs a busy schedule of social activities. We didn't just move her into a regular apartment.

And as far as Medicaid, that's a big reason we do not want my mother in assisting living now. We are trying to make sure the money lasts so she can avoid Medicaid, as we've heard awful stories. If she lives as long as her mother, we could be talking about another 8 or 9 years, and the last couple of years could be in assisted living or, worse, a nursing home. We need to make sure we have money left for that, while making sure she has the care she needs now. And she does. She gets meals, has an emergency pendant, and her meds administered. Plenty of sociable neighbors, all widows, who are eager to befriend her.

[Anonymous]

OP, and I really am leaving now. I need some retail therapy!

Thanks again for all the helpful responses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:WOW. Op and the rest of you are clueless and unsympathetic when it comes to elder care! Op - she is 88!! She probably needs the help and attention. She liked the other place. Move her back there. You are saying she has enough to last five years? That takes her to 93. She will probably die sooner if you leave her where she is.

Okay. What happens if she lives past 93?

A woman who hates changes in her 80’s is not going to adjust better in her 90’s. Do you really want her to go to a Medicare nursing home in her 90’s? You think that’s kinder?

My question is: what happens when your plan for her to die soon doesn’t work out?

What then?

[Anonymous]

OP I am sending you endless support and encouragement here. My hear goes out to you and I relate. I have been through so much hell with my parents and sometimes positing here you get the trolls who have no empathy.

I would report that social worker to her licensure board and at the very least ask to speak to her supervisor immediately as she is doing harm and has the potential to do harm to other. She is poorly trained to deal with the very complex issues that comes with sandwich generation issues and she clearly has no empathy or understanding of the situation. That SW needs supervision promptly and she needs to be taken off the case.

You had her evaluated and the doctor said no signs of dementia. is that correct? This was just recently, right? I assume many meds have been tried with her to no avail? At one point one of my parents was put on adderall with zoloft so she can manage and it helped for a while.

I might get a case manager involved at the agency you hire the aides. A good one can work well with all parties to mediate and move things forward.

Also, if she goes into assisted living, what do they do when she runs out money? I would find out exactly and see how you feel about that. She many not even live to see that happen. There is absolutely no reason to use your own money on her retirement.

[Anonymous]

I would pay someone to come in daily with the job of teaching her to do these basic things she refuses to do and also to talk to her and be her companion. I think if you do that for awhile, with the person understanding that their job is to gradually get her to do the normal stuff on her own, then you won't have to spend all that money forever, maybe just a few months. After that you could cut back on the aide's hours to maybe just a few hours a day.

If you don't like that idea you could consider what we did with my mother when she was in her 70s and started having heart issues where she would push her alert button in the middle of the night and we had to rush over to her place or the hospital. (Turned out she needed a pacemaker.) What we did was buy a house together with mom with room enough for all of us and we (me, sister, brothers, spouses, adult kids, minor kids) all took care of mom until she died at 90. It was a privilege. And BTW we paid an aide (out of mom's money) to sit with her 8-4 M-F while we were at work toward the end of her life but family took care of her the rest of the hours.

[Anonymous]

I agree that a neutral person (the aide) will have better luck getting your mother to cooperate with her daily routine. Please be sure to let them know your mother's current behaviors. If your mom steps it up then you know she is just taking advantage of you and your sister. Best of luck. Glad you and your sister have each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I am sending you endless support and encouragement here. My hear goes out to you and I relate. I have been through so much hell with my parents and sometimes positing here you get the trolls who have no empathy.

I would report that social worker to her licensure board and at the very least ask to speak to her supervisor immediately as she is doing harm and has the potential to do harm to other. She is poorly trained to deal with the very complex issues that comes with sandwich generation issues and she clearly has no empathy or understanding of the situation. That SW needs supervision promptly and she needs to be taken off the case.

You had her evaluated and the doctor said no signs of dementia. is that correct? This was just recently, right? I assume many meds have been tried with her to no avail? At one point one of my parents was put on adderall with zoloft so she can manage and it helped for a while.

I might get a case manager involved at the agency you hire the aides. A good one can work well with all parties to mediate and move things forward.

Also, if she goes into assisted living, what do they do when she runs out money? I would find out exactly and see how you feel about that. She many not even live to see that happen. There is absolutely no reason to use your own money on her retirement.

Thank you so much for your support.

Yes, I want to get rid of that social worker. From what I understand, hospice (including the "after") is intended to support all grieving family members, not make demands on the adult children to put their needs aside and devote themselves fully to the mother's demands, no matter how unrealistic.

Also yes, we had her evaluated and the neurologist said no sign of dementia based on test, although he did acknowledge to me that she is behaving as though she has it. We also had a brain scan, and the doctor said it was normal for a woman her age. The full neurology test was about three years ago, but she has had three or four "minis" since then. I am always amazed when they tell me how well my mother scores. Our last "mini" was last month, before we moved her to the new facility,

And yes, she has been on an anti-depressant for more than 30 years. I see it as a chicken-and-eff type thing. Is she depressed because she is so dependent (she married my father at 21) or is she so dependent because she is depressed?

And to answer your question: The assisted living place where she lived with my dad kicks people out once they run out of money. Then it would be Medicaid at a Medicaid facility or start dipping into my own old age funds. I will be very resentful at that point if my mother depleted her savings by moving to assisted living prematurely, and then putting my own future at risk. This will also cause a big rift with my sister, who feels we must support my mother til the end and keep her off Medicaid.

[Anonymous]

It would be great if she could move in with one of you but have meals and meds provided by someone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would pay someone to come in daily with the job of teaching her to do these basic things she refuses to do and also to talk to her and be her companion. I think if you do that for awhile, with the person understanding that their job is to gradually get her to do the normal stuff on her own, then you won't have to spend all that money forever, maybe just a few months. After that you could cut back on the aide's hours to maybe just a few hours a day.

If you don't like that idea you could consider what we did with my mother when she was in her 70s and started having heart issues where she would push her alert button in the middle of the night and we had to rush over to her place or the hospital. (Turned out she needed a pacemaker.) What we did was buy a house together with mom with room enough for all of us and we (me, sister, brothers, spouses, adult kids, minor kids) all took care of mom until she died at 90. It was a privilege. And BTW we paid an aide (out of mom's money) to sit with her 8-4 M-F while we were at work toward the end of her life but family took care of her the rest of the hours.

Yes, it would be our hope that the aide could teach mom about the TV and the shower, but my fear is that she will still refuse to learn, preferring that the aide just do it. I suspect that rather than pare down the hours, we would end up increasing them to where she is attended to full-time.

I didn't fully realize how bad it was. It was masked to a large extent by the attention she was getting from the AL aides all last year, but now, two weeks into this, I see how extensive this problem is. And, she isn't stupid. She was skipped twice in school and graduated HS at age 16, and college (yes, college!) at 20. She married my father a few months later, just one week after her 21st birthday.