My sister is marrying a non-Jew. Help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

Yes, she is because that is the halacha (outside Reform and Recon). Which you were not taught, it would appear. I mean if you are a committed ideological Reform Jew, then of course to keep with your ideology you should not have a conversion ceremony - but you also should realize that it is not true that there is nothing you can do to get O to accept you as a Jew. There view is different, and its no less legitimate than the Reform view.

[Anonymous]

Op, you suffer from delusional sense of moral and religious superiority. Here is the secret no one told: G-d hates pride and people and who deny love to others in His name. You won't get any brownie points with G-d by shunning your family members. You will do quit the opposite. You will cause your sister lifetime of pain and you will be held accountable for that sin.
In all honesty, if I were your sister and I knew what you thought of me, my husband, and my potential children I would shun YOU. You are not worthy of love.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

Yes, she is because that is the halacha (outside Reform and Recon). Which you were not taught, it would appear. I mean if you are a committed ideological Reform Jew, then of course to keep with your ideology you should not have a conversion ceremony - but you also should realize that it is not true that there is nothing you can do to get O to accept you as a Jew. There view is different, and its no less legitimate than the Reform view.

I fully understand it. I just don't accept it because it's arbitrary and undermines Jewish community cohesion. I know Orthodox and Conservative Jews can make up whatever rules they want for what makes someone Jewish, but I don't agree with that rule, so I decided to not join their community.

[Anonymous]

Would you attend the wedding of a Catholic coworker? If so, how is this any different?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

Gender matters in halacha. If you think gender equality should trump halacha wherever they conflict, as Reform does, that is fine. I was addressing OP, who is Orthodox, and accepts halacha even where gender matters.

Again I am not sure why Orthodox OP is looking for advice from people who consider Orthodox Judaism so fundamentally illegitimate that its constraints and possibilities cannot even be mentioned except to condemn them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, you suffer from delusional sense of moral and religious superiority. Here is the secret no one told: G-d hates pride and people and who deny love to others in His name. You won't get any brownie points with G-d by shunning your family members. You will do quit the opposite. You will cause your sister lifetime of pain and you will be held accountable for that sin.
In all honesty, if I were your sister and I knew what you thought of me, my husband, and my potential children I would shun YOU. You are not worthy of love.

This. I'm not entirely sure why OP is expecting an invitation. I wouldn't extend one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

Yes, she is because that is the halacha (outside Reform and Recon). Which you were not taught, it would appear. I mean if you are a committed ideological Reform Jew, then of course to keep with your ideology you should not have a conversion ceremony - but you also should realize that it is not true that there is nothing you can do to get O to accept you as a Jew. There view is different, and its no less legitimate than the Reform view.

I fully understand it. I just don't accept it because it's arbitrary and undermines Jewish community cohesion. I know Orthodox and Conservative Jews can make up whatever rules they want for what makes someone Jewish, but I don't agree with that rule, so I decided to not join their community.

Orthodoxy believes A That retaining traditional Halacha adds to community cohesion. Given how their communities have grown, and what has happened to ours, I find that hard to argue with B. That following halacha is more important than community cohesion.

Halacha is not that easy to change (even for the C, but more so for O) so no, they cannot make up whatever rules they want. However you can disagree. And not join O or C. But it seems unreasonable to me to claim that they would not accept you whatever you do, when there is a thing you can do to get them to accept you, but you don't want to do it because of your own ideological position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Would you attend the wedding of a Catholic coworker? If so, how is this any different?

Not OP, but that is easy. There is nothing in halacha preventing a gentile from marrying another gentile (halacha, apart from the 7 commandments given to Noah, does not apply to gentiles) She MIGHT have an issue entering a church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would you attend the wedding of a Catholic coworker? If so, how is this any different?

Not OP, but that is easy. There is nothing in halacha preventing a gentile from marrying another gentile (halacha, apart from the 7 commandments given to Noah, does not apply to gentiles) She MIGHT have an issue entering a church.

As someone very wisely said: where there is lot of legalism, there is little faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

Yes, she is because that is the halacha (outside Reform and Recon). Which you were not taught, it would appear. I mean if you are a committed ideological Reform Jew, then of course to keep with your ideology you should not have a conversion ceremony - but you also should realize that it is not true that there is nothing you can do to get O to accept you as a Jew. There view is different, and its no less legitimate than the Reform view.

I fully understand it. I just don't accept it because it's arbitrary and undermines Jewish community cohesion. I know Orthodox and Conservative Jews can make up whatever rules they want for what makes someone Jewish, but I don't agree with that rule, so I decided to not join their community.

Orthodoxy believes A That retaining traditional Halacha adds to community cohesion. Given how their communities have grown, and what has happened to ours, I find that hard to argue with B. That following halacha is more important than community cohesion.

Halacha is not that easy to change (even for the C, but more so for O) so no, they cannot make up whatever rules they want. However you can disagree. And not join O or C. But it seems unreasonable to me to claim that they would not accept you whatever you do, when there is a thing you can do to get them to accept you, but you don't want to do it because of your own ideological position.

I don't think you get it. The argument is not so much whether gender-based halacha is justified. It's a religious rule, that's fine. The question is how you chose to relate to children who are half Jewish but not halachically. If your ultimate goal is to promote Judaism and a Torah-based life, you should be AS WELCOMING AS POSSIBLE to ALL people with ANY connection to Judaism. Not just throw them away as less-than because their Jewish parent randomly happens to be one gender instead of the other. If you followed that path, many many more kids of intermarriage would embrace Judaism, including by converting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would you attend the wedding of a Catholic coworker? If so, how is this any different?

Not OP, but that is easy. There is nothing in halacha preventing a gentile from marrying another gentile (halacha, apart from the 7 commandments given to Noah, does not apply to gentiles) She MIGHT have an issue entering a church.

As someone very wisely said: where there is lot of legalism, there is little faith.

Exactly.

This is my issue with these very doctrine-heavy versions of religions. My goal in engaging with a religion is to try to figure out more about why we're all here, gain some personal peace of mind, engage more productively and compassionately with the people around me, and *maybe* gain some insight into what happens after we die.

I personally find that following a lot of rules about what to eat, how to dress, whom to marry, etc. do nothing to help me achieve those goals. Maybe it does for others, but not for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any religion that instructs you to shun family who are not as devout as you is not a good influence in your life. This is how cults work.

Life is long and varied. You will need to learn how to reconcile your idea of "support" of the way people live who do not follow the same religion as you.

Like most orthodox versions of religions, Orthodox Judaism gets pretty cultish at times. Seems like OP has really drunk the Kool-Aid.

Definitely starting to sound cult like.
Cohesion needed for community spirit?
Have any of you tried researching this beyond the information you have been given?
Us vs them
Control of clothing, diet, prote dependence, obedience
Insider vs outsider doctrine
Shun a sibling who disobeys, label some as worldly or wrong

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any religion that instructs you to shun family who are not as devout as you is not a good influence in your life. This is how cults work.

Life is long and varied. You will need to learn how to reconcile your idea of "support" of the way people live who do not follow the same religion as you.

Like most orthodox versions of religions, Orthodox Judaism gets pretty cultish at times. Seems like OP has really drunk the Kool-Aid.

Definitely starting to sound cult like.
Cohesion needed for community spirit?
Have any of you tried researching this beyond the information you have been given?
Us vs them
Control of clothing, diet, prote dependence, obedience
Insider vs outsider doctrine
Shun a sibling who disobeys, label some as worldly or wrong

As much as they want to be different they make it sound exactly like all other extreme "religions".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

Yes, she is because that is the halacha (outside Reform and Recon). Which you were not taught, it would appear. I mean if you are a committed ideological Reform Jew, then of course to keep with your ideology you should not have a conversion ceremony - but you also should realize that it is not true that there is nothing you can do to get O to accept you as a Jew. There view is different, and its no less legitimate than the Reform view.

I fully understand it. I just don't accept it because it's arbitrary and undermines Jewish community cohesion. I know Orthodox and Conservative Jews can make up whatever rules they want for what makes someone Jewish, but I don't agree with that rule, so I decided to not join their community.

Orthodoxy believes A That retaining traditional Halacha adds to community cohesion. Given how their communities have grown, and what has happened to ours, I find that hard to argue with B. That following halacha is more important than community cohesion.

Halacha is not that easy to change (even for the C, but more so for O) so no, they cannot make up whatever rules they want. However you can disagree. And not join O or C. But it seems unreasonable to me to claim that they would not accept you whatever you do, when there is a thing you can do to get them to accept you, but you don't want to do it because of your own ideological position.

I don't think you get it. The argument is not so much whether gender-based halacha is justified. It's a religious rule, that's fine. The question is how you chose to relate to children who are half Jewish but not halachically. If your ultimate goal is to promote Judaism and a Torah-based life, you should be AS WELCOMING AS POSSIBLE to ALL people with ANY connection to Judaism. Not just throw them away as less-than because their Jewish parent randomly happens to be one gender instead of the other. If you followed that path, many many more kids of intermarriage would embrace Judaism, including by converting.

I don't think I ever suggested throwing them away. I merely noted that OP (I am addressing an individual not arguing ideological principles) would have nieces and nephews who are halachicalluy Jewish. IME halachically Jewish kids are at least somewhat more likely to be drawn to Othodox Judaism. I presume OP might be more interested in drawing the kids to Orthodox Judaism as it exists - not to Reform Judaism or to an Orthodox Judaism that some DCUMers might want to exist. That is all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would you attend the wedding of a Catholic coworker? If so, how is this any different?

Not OP, but that is easy. There is nothing in halacha preventing a gentile from marrying another gentile (halacha, apart from the 7 commandments given to Noah, does not apply to gentiles) She MIGHT have an issue entering a church.

As someone very wisely said: where there is lot of legalism, there is little faith.

Then you don't know many Orthodox Jews. I have found incredible amounts of passionate faith among them. Though it may be expressed in ways people raised with a Christian approach to faith (and yes, many Jews have a Christian approach to what faith is) cannot see. In fact I think Muslims "get" traditional Judaism much more (and I wish we all could explore that connection more, leaving politics aside)