My sister is marrying a non-Jew. Help?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

Wow, you and the OP are really making religious Jews look bad.

"Cultural Jewish" BS? You realize most Orthodox Jews consider Conservative Judaism to be BS and not really Jewish, right?

Maybe lay off the judgment a little about how others engage with Judaism?

I won't bother explaining to you about Orthodox - Conservative relations since you probably won't believe me.

I don't think real cultural Jewishness is BS. I admire the early 20th century Yiddishists, Yiddish literature, theater, etc. I admire secular Israelis who have built a vibrant secular Hebrew culture and have integrated the Jewish past into that. I wish I knew more about Ladino and Judeo-Arabic culture.

But that is not what the PP was referring to. Kids of intermarriages (where the Jewish partner is an atheist) in the USA today are not really "culturally Jewish". They are people whose lives are effectively non-Jewish, but may be fed some stereotypical Ashkenazi food once in a while, and will get to light candles at hanukkah. Before playing with the toys under the tree. Only their genes are (half) Jewish.

So you're only accepting of people who demonstrate a sufficient "level" of Jewishness (however YOU define it)?

And God forbid we talk of those horrid kids of intermarriages (like me). You just shun us from the Jewish community.

Shame on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sym C Jew)

as she is under no obligation to be any religion in particular or even at all.

To be clear, according to normative traditional Judaism, any born Jew DOES have an obligation to follow Torah, to not do so is a sin. It's not a matter of choice or conscience. It is an obligation taken on at Sinai (rabbinic legend says ALL Jewish souls were present at Sinai and took on the obligation)

OP - you should be clear that the people you asked (assuming OP was NOT a troll post) about this situation, are mostly people who not only do not share your ideological position, but are either ignorant of it or hostile to it. Not sure why you would expect a useful discussion here. There IS a serious case for attending the wedding, that makes sense within an Orthodox ideology, I believe - and I think you might find that in a BT forum (perhaps on Facebook?) But here you will mostly get expressions of disgust from people who do not really understand your situation.

Oh no -- we understand her situation quite well. We understand she's placing adherence to her religion above showing love towards her sister.

Don't patronize us by casting us as ignorant.

I said ignorant OR hostile. You are not taking seriously or sympathetically the dilemma she faces. Why she would look to you for advice, I do not know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

[Anonymous]

So people who speak yiddish are culturally Jewish but people who observe the holiday cycles in their home are not?

There can be a discussion about what if anything it means to be culturally jewish but to define by the languages people spoke 100 years ago in the diaspora and not today seems bizarre.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sym C Jew)

as she is under no obligation to be any religion in particular or even at all.

To be clear, according to normative traditional Judaism, any born Jew DOES have an obligation to follow Torah, to not do so is a sin. It's not a matter of choice or conscience. It is an obligation taken on at Sinai (rabbinic legend says ALL Jewish souls were present at Sinai and took on the obligation)

OP - you should be clear that the people you asked (assuming OP was NOT a troll post) about this situation, are mostly people who not only do not share your ideological position, but are either ignorant of it or hostile to it. Not sure why you would expect a useful discussion here. There IS a serious case for attending the wedding, that makes sense within an Orthodox ideology, I believe - and I think you might find that in a BT forum (perhaps on Facebook?) But here you will mostly get expressions of disgust from people who do not really understand your situation.

Oh no -- we understand her situation quite well. We understand she's placing adherence to her religion above showing love towards her sister.

Don't patronize us by casting us as ignorant.

I said ignorant OR hostile. You are not taking seriously or sympathetically the dilemma she faces. Why she would look to you for advice, I do not know.

No -- I have no sympathy for someone who is putting her blind faith in doctrine over showing love for her sister. I'm not going to apologize for that.

As far as I'm concerned, what everyone should strive for is to spread love. OP is doing the opposite. She is the embodiment of everything negative that religion can produce (and I say that as someone who is not an atheist).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

Wow, you and the OP are really making religious Jews look bad.

"Cultural Jewish" BS? You realize most Orthodox Jews consider Conservative Judaism to be BS and not really Jewish, right?

Maybe lay off the judgment a little about how others engage with Judaism?

I won't bother explaining to you about Orthodox - Conservative relations since you probably won't believe me.

I don't think real cultural Jewishness is BS. I admire the early 20th century Yiddishists, Yiddish literature, theater, etc. I admire secular Israelis who have built a vibrant secular Hebrew culture and have integrated the Jewish past into that. I wish I knew more about Ladino and Judeo-Arabic culture.

But that is not what the PP was referring to. Kids of intermarriages (where the Jewish partner is an atheist) in the USA today are not really "culturally Jewish". They are people whose lives are effectively non-Jewish, but may be fed some stereotypical Ashkenazi food once in a while, and will get to light candles at hanukkah. Before playing with the toys under the tree. Only their genes are (half) Jewish.

So you're only accepting of people who demonstrate a sufficient "level" of Jewishness (however YOU define it)?

And God forbid we talk of those horrid kids of intermarriages (like me). You just shun us from the Jewish community.

Shame on you.

I can accept them as good people, sure. I can be friends with them. Its the term I reject, not the people. The term is BS.

[Anonymous]

Go or don’t go depending on what has the most weight:

Your feeling that your sister manipulated you into giving your public approval for something you oppose
Or
Your sister’s (and others’) feeling like you put doctrine above love for your sister and a chance to see one of the happiest days of her life.

Which will cause you and your sister more lifelong hard feelings and regrets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Exactly this. I am the PP with a Catholic mom and Jewish dad. There are a lot of reasons why I gravitated away from Judaism after my Bat Mitzvah, but one big one was recognizing how many Jews don't even consider me Jewish, no matter what I do.

I am very spiritual but have found my own path because I found most Jewish communities intolerant.

There are very very few Jews who would not consider you Jewish if you had a conversion ceremony.

I realize most patrilineal Jews don't want to do that, but some (for example those who become Orthodox) do precisely that.

I know I can go through a conversion ceremony, but I don't feel I should do that. I went to Hebrew school and had a Bat Mitzvah. I know more about how to lead a Torah service than my MIL, who was raised as a modern Orthodox Jew and did not go through any formal Jewish education -- and yet she's considered Jewish and I'm not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

Wow, you and the OP are really making religious Jews look bad.

"Cultural Jewish" BS? You realize most Orthodox Jews consider Conservative Judaism to be BS and not really Jewish, right?

Maybe lay off the judgment a little about how others engage with Judaism?

I won't bother explaining to you about Orthodox - Conservative relations since you probably won't believe me.

I don't think real cultural Jewishness is BS. I admire the early 20th century Yiddishists, Yiddish literature, theater, etc. I admire secular Israelis who have built a vibrant secular Hebrew culture and have integrated the Jewish past into that. I wish I knew more about Ladino and Judeo-Arabic culture.

But that is not what the PP was referring to. Kids of intermarriages (where the Jewish partner is an atheist) in the USA today are not really "culturally Jewish". They are people whose lives are effectively non-Jewish, but may be fed some stereotypical Ashkenazi food once in a while, and will get to light candles at hanukkah. Before playing with the toys under the tree. Only their genes are (half) Jewish.

So you're only accepting of people who demonstrate a sufficient "level" of Jewishness (however YOU define it)?

And God forbid we talk of those horrid kids of intermarriages (like me). You just shun us from the Jewish community.

Shame on you.

I can accept them as good people, sure. I can be friends with them. Its the term I reject, not the people. The term is BS.

Oh no -- you said there's "real cultural Jewishness" and then you spouted off about Yiddish literature. You just like to define what cultural Jewishness is and what it isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Doesn't want sister to forgo the potential happiness that comes from having a Jewish family

Makes entire Jewish family unhappy by shunning sister.

I was going to ignore because it's obviously a troll post, but, LOL!

[Anonymous]

Family is one of the cornerstones of Judaism.

I’d never throw it away over something like this. Because make no mistake, not going will estrange you from your sister

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So people who speak yiddish are culturally Jewish but people who observe the holiday cycles in their home are not?

There can be a discussion about what if anything it means to be culturally jewish but to define by the languages people spoke 100 years ago in the diaspora and not today seems bizarre.

Any specifically Jewish language spoken today would do. I mean I suppose there are Israeli born people living in the US who speak Hebrew at home.

But yeah, cultural Jews are ones whose lives are shaped by Jewish culture, as opposed to Jewish religion.

Someone who takes a few religious rituals, (and I mean few - I doubt the folks who "observe the holiday cycles" are doing anything for the minor fasts, the New Moon, or even shabbos) and honors them in a limited way (do they refrain from work on all the holidays where that is required?) and devoid of the religious meaning, is a religious Jews very LITE.

Cultural Jew means a different way of being Jewish than being religious - it does not mean the SAME way but much less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(sympathetic C Jew again) To note the kids will be halachically Jewish (lets leave off with the "culturally Jewish" BS - the kids won't be speaking Yiddish, vaguely aware of Judaism is not "culturally Jewish") and at some point may have curiosity about Judaism. If you, OP, are involved in their lives, and can model a happy successful O life, they may be drawn either to O, or at least to some more Torah focused life.

I would also suggest you talk with an Orthodox rabbi familiar with the situation among non O in America (IE a mainstream modern O rabbi, esp one familiar with BT issues) Not sure a rabbi in Israel would be a good source on the sociology, even if you follow them on halacha.

So the kids are only worth being involved with if they are "halachically" Jewish through the mother? Such bullsh*t reasoning is why the numbers of Jews will decrease in the U.S. My son is not "halachically" Jewish because I (the mom) am not, but I make a lot of effort to educate him and expose him to the faith. If what you're intending is to alienate Jews and decrease your numbers, good job.

Good for you. However halachically Jewish kids will find an easier path to traditional Judaism, especially given that in this case the Jewish parent is an atheist so they will not be educated as Jews.

And that matters, why? Being obsessed with the gender of the Jewish parent only makes the child less likely to find their way to traditional Judaism, because it's so arbitrary. The only reason the path is easier for the halachically Jewish kid is because you discriminated against the non-halachic kid based solely on the gender of the Jewish parent.

[Anonymous]

If you can't support it, don't go. Let those people get married in peace and you stay home and stew in your bigotry.