"God has a plan"

[Anonymous]

I believe the “God has a plan” stuff because the Bible says he has a plan. I think the “God has a plan” phrase that Christians toss around probably comes from a verse in the book of Jeremiah. See Jeremiah 29:11:

11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Of course, first and foremost, I believe the Bible is God’s word to us so that’s what allows me to believe “I know the plans I have for you…” when I read it.

But then it says “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” And you’re probably wondering, WTH, God? Is infertility and raising a special needs child really a way of not harming me? And my only response to that is, maybe so? I believe God is all knowing and sees a bigger picture from a perspective that we can’t see.

Maybe what you see as harm is really God protecting you from some deeper form of suffering. Your answer to infertility may be “I just want to give birth to a healthy child.” And that might ease some of the pain and bring you joy. But giving birth to a healthy child doesn’t mean that child won’t run out in the street one day and get hit by a car. We have no idea what the future holds and just by looking at the world around us we can see that none of us is free from some degree of pain and suffering. So God may be showing you grace through this suffering that you’ll never be aware of on this earth.

I think the problem with the “God has a plan” phrase as people toss it around today is that they’re implying “God has a plan and that means everything will work out and all the pain go away” and that’s just not the case.

From my perspective, God’s ultimate plan for us is that we believe him, love him, trust him and love others too. Our plan might be to be happy and safe and healthy but God just wants us to love him. See what Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 when one of the disciples asks Jesus what the greatest commandment is:

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I’ve found that if I actively focus on loving God and being intentional about caring for other people, the pain and suffering that I’ve gone through/am going through (I’ve suffered 3 miscarriages), slowly fades to the back of my mind.

So whether you choose to believe in the "God's plan" thing or not, maybe trying to get more of an outword focus for a while (try getting connected to others who have kids with special needs so you can find ways to support each other, for example) may help take the focus off the suffering you are experiencing right now and help you get a taste of the bigger picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

Well, I don't think we always have to wait until after we die to understand God or His role in our lives. But yes, in order to spend eternity with Him, we must accept and follow Jesus Christ as our savior. He is the only One who can take us to God.

And what happens to all those people who have never heard of Jesus Christ or who were taught as children to believe in some other Deity? Too bad for them -- they may have had happy, productive lives here on Earth, but no eternity for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was very agnostic for many years. Recently I have come to believe that perhaps God did have a plan. When I look at all the truly awful things I went through in life and realize that I could only have gotten to this good place with wonderful children, etc. by taking that path.

I hope that you find peace.

So do you think that God ultimately had a better plan for you than he has for OP and for many other people in much worse circumstances? If so, how do you account for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I believe the “God has a plan” stuff because the Bible says he has a plan. I think the “God has a plan” phrase that Christians toss around probably comes from a verse in the book of Jeremiah. See Jeremiah 29:11:

11 “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Of course, first and foremost, I believe the Bible is God’s word to us so that’s what allows me to believe “I know the plans I have for you…” when I read it.

But then it says “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” And you’re probably wondering, WTH, God? Is infertility and raising a special needs child really a way of not harming me? And my only response to that is, maybe so? I believe God is all knowing and sees a bigger picture from a perspective that we can’t see.

Maybe what you see as harm is really God protecting you from some deeper form of suffering. Your answer to infertility may be “I just want to give birth to a healthy child.” And that might ease some of the pain and bring you joy. But giving birth to a healthy child doesn’t mean that child won’t run out in the street one day and get hit by a car. We have no idea what the future holds and just by looking at the world around us we can see that none of us is free from some degree of pain and suffering. So God may be showing you grace through this suffering that you’ll never be aware of on this earth.

I think the problem with the “God has a plan” phrase as people toss it around today is that they’re implying “God has a plan and that means everything will work out and all the pain go away” and that’s just not the case.

From my perspective, God’s ultimate plan for us is that we believe him, love him, trust him and love others too. Our plan might be to be happy and safe and healthy but God just wants us to love him. See what Jesus says in Matthew 22:36-40 when one of the disciples asks Jesus what the greatest commandment is:

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I’ve found that if I actively focus on loving God and being intentional about caring for other people, the pain and suffering that I’ve gone through/am going through (I’ve suffered 3 miscarriages), slowly fades to the back of my mind.

So whether you choose to believe in the "God's plan" thing or not, maybe trying to get more of an outword focus for a while (try getting connected to others who have kids with special needs so you can find ways to support each other, for example) may help take the focus off the suffering you are experiencing right now and help you get a taste of the bigger picture.

according to the above, the big payoff of twisting your mind into a pretzel is gaining eternal life, which is not an option if you follow your common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

Well, I don't think we always have to wait until after we die to understand God or His role in our lives. But yes, in order to spend eternity with Him, we must accept and follow Jesus Christ as our savior. He is the only One who can take us to God.

No, not "always" but lots of times and it's what some people are saying OP should accept -- for the big payoff -- eternal life with Jesus!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

But He DID make us perfect. When originally created, Man had it all. Life in the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for that. No pain, no sickness, no suffering, no death -- and free choice to boot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

But He DID make us perfect. When originally created, Man had it all. Life in the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for that. No pain, no sickness, no suffering, no death -- and free choice to boot.

What? Of course not. If Eve were perfect, she would not have been tempted by and given in on the apple thing.

Back to the parent analogy -- he put a 2 year old alone in a room with a piece of candy and said - whatever you do, don't eat that candy and now we are all in trouble from the day we are born even though we didn't get the candy!

[Anonymous]

You sound mad. Go ahead and be mad at God, he can take it. Then find someone to talk to about what's going on in your life. There are people who can help you work through this pain.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

That was written to the OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don't make people that you know are imperfect then punish them for being imperfect with bad lives or hell. This is what I'm trying to say.

But He DID make us perfect. When originally created, Man had it all. Life in the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for that. No pain, no sickness, no suffering, no death -- and free choice to boot.

What? Of course not. If Eve were perfect, she would not have been tempted by and given in on the apple thing.

Back to the parent analogy -- he put a 2 year old alone in a room with a piece of candy and said - whatever you do, don't eat that candy and now we are all in trouble from the day we are born even though we didn't get the candy!

No, Eve -- like all of us -- had free choice. She elected to turn away from God. Even Jesus was tempted by Satan. There is no shame in that, nor is it a sign of imperfection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am (marginally) Catholic. I find it hard to believe that the whole world just appeared from nothing, and that no intelligence was necessary to create it. I converted as an adult but have of late become a spiritual recidivist, backsliding into the agnosticism of my youth and early 20's as I cope with secondary infertility and a child with fairly severe ADHD. I HATE when people say "God has a plan for you." To my ears, it sounds like predeterminism and I firmly do not believe in that. That has never been my conception of God. When people to say this to me, I think they are nuts. That kind of talk sounds like God decided to make me infertile and give me a child with special needs, while the drug addicts and child abusers in my area seem capable of procreating like rabbits based on all of the ads entreating people to foster this growing population of kids. If God is really that involved in our lives, determining what will happen to each of us and when, why the hell would he do this? It defies the intelligence and logic that I believe are a necessary component of creating a world like ours.

So I guess my question is, WHY do people believe in this "God has a plan" stuff? What are they trying to convey when they say it? IME, Catholics will say things like "look to God for strength and guidance," but not "God has a plan." However these days neither camp is working for me. Lately I'm more of the opinion that God exists but is a pure intelligence - a force of biological creation - that is indifferent to the fate of mankind.

If God exists, I don't think God is indifferent. I also don't think God sees our hurt and pain in the same way. When a two year old fall down and skins his knee, it feels like the end of the world to him. It's over-whelming to him. To the parent, it is less serious. A parent knows that the skinned knee hurts, but also knows that it is not serious. A parent is willing to console, but isn't going to worry too much about a skinned knee. I think that a lot of the pain that we experience in the material world. We are very over-whelmed by many things, but God knows that those things are transitory or not important.

Nice rationalization -- and here's another one -- God will eventually reveal his plan to us -- after we die -- as long as we've accepted his son, Jesus Christ, as our savior.

What you said is almost the exact opposite of what I said. You seem very defensive. What's the matter? Did I ping something in you? Get through throough those militant atheist, internet tough guy defenses?

Plenty of Christians don't believe that accepting Jesus as the savior is necessary to get to heaven. Mormons don't. Unitarian Universalists don't. Pope Francis doesn't which suggests that Catholics shouldn't. Some evangelicals with large ministries have taught that nearly everyone, including non-Christians go to heaven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is what people have to tell themselves to weather bad things, to believe there is some point to their suffering. Personally, I don't buy it either. When people say this to you, you are supposed to accept your infertility as part of some larger, greater scheme and be ok with it. It is supposed to make you feel better, that this isn't random bad luck. Personally, I'd rather believe in random bad luck than that the one being who is supposed to love me and everyone else more than anything allowed/caused some of my bad stuff to happen, but that's just me. I'm sorry things are difficult for you right now.

Thanks, PP. And the bolded is EXACTLY how I feel. If God is love, I'm sure as shit not feeling loved right now. My other favorite is "God doesn't give us more than we can handle." I'm begging to differ at the moment.

Exactly that, and that's the reason I backed away from religion. I haven't read through the whole thread. OP, I wish you all the best.

Thanks. I'm not seeing anything here that speaks to me, to be honest. I think the reality is is that I truly am an agnostic who really wanted to believe. I just don't believe in the God of Christian faith right now. So saying "turn to your faith" or "God has a plan" just rings very hollow to me these days.

I assume this is OP?

I understand that you feel this way and think that most people go through phases like this in their faith journey. You are searching for something much deeper than gratuitous platitudes about God will provide.

But I go back to something that I posted earlier, in response to other glimpses you have given us into your life. You are still trying to "save yourself." You think that there is something that you, as a Type A person, can and should be able to do to figure this out, make it seem reasonable, and embrace on your terms. That is simply not the way that Christianity works. Jesus asked us to give everything up to follow Him, and that includes our dreams and plans for our own lives. That is when we will receive the blessing and gift of faith. It sounds like you're not there yet, which is fine, but I think you need to recognize that.

No, I am not. I am pissed beyond belief. And I still fail to see what the hell eternal salvation has to do with my dreams and plans for my life here on earth. Everything on this earth seems kinda pointless to me at the moment. I firmly do not believe that God made me infertile b/c there is some bastard child out there somewhere waiting to be born who just couldn't make it on this earth without me as a mother. It's a pretty twisted view, as I think about it, because it means some poor soul has to end up pregnant with a child they don't want. It's pretty sick to wish that on someone, and I don't. If an adoption happens for us, great. But I'm not going to wish an unplanned pregnancy on someone just so I can be a mother again. And I can't see how a benevolent and caring God would want that either. I CAN see how an indifferent one (I.E. pure intelligence) couldn't care less and has nothing to do with it either way.

I think I just need to go be a Unitarian Universalist since they don't traffic in platitudes or absolutes or claim to know what is true. I can respect that.

[Anonymous]

God does not have a plan. Life is in motion, a chain of reactions with no plan.