Tension with Wife's Family over Finances

[Anonymous]

The problem is not that your families have different approaches to finances. The problem is that you are so sure that your family's way is the "right" way and theirs is the "wrong" way. You need to accept that they are different and make choices (together with your wife) that work for your nuclear family within her broader family context.

So big time, right off the bat, this:

"He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place."

Was a major dick move. What?!? She's an adult that presumably made this deal with her dad and agreed to it, and you stepped in and changed the terms?? I honestly can't believe that he doesn't hate you for that. Of course there's tension. You want to fix it? Apologies and resume payments.

As far as the vacations and the restaurants - I can understand you being ticked the first time when you didn't realize what was happening, but now? You know the drill. Anything you agree to do with them, you're paying your half. Accept that that's the deal. If the vacation is worth it to you guys, you go and you pay your half. If it's too much money, or not worth the money, then you say no. They complain? Shrug. Grown children don't do exactly what their parents want all the time. Such is life.

But you are a man grown and need to realize that people get to do with their money what they wish. You're coming off super entitled and crappy in this post - the world doesn't always work the way You Think Is Best, and since you're not a toddler, I would expect you to be able to handle that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

100% The fact that they still funded it with 0% interest means that they were willing to support her but wanted her to understand what her choices meant. That's on her.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you should spend it on something that has low ROI. That's not a good use of money, and the FIL knows that.

As a blue collar worker who built up his own wealth, he's given her the means to do the same, but she's chosen a different path.

You, OP, don't know what it's like to not be wealthy and build up your wealth on your own. You come across as an elitist snob.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Yes, did you also inform the mortgage company, car payment place, and credit card that you would cease making payments after marriage? I hate to say it, but you sound like a dick.

“We shouldn’t split the bill because you ordered something more expensive than me?” You are not some poor 21 year old. When you are established and well off, you don’t complain about splitting restaurant bills, it is pathetic.

This. For the first part of the post, I was prepared to side with OP, but then it really went sideways. His complaints appear to be that:

- His FIL made an arrangement with his wife re financing her education that OP didn't like, and so he reneged on it when they married. That's a complaint that the FIL should have, not OP.
- His FIL doesn't pay for him when they vacation and or eat at expensive restaurants.

In the immortal words of Cameron, "Pardon my French, but you're an a$$hole!"

The key part of this is the FIL insists on the expensive restaurants and trips and gets mad if OP and wife decline. Keep declining/suggesting alternatives and let them get mad. Get separate checks when you do go to the expensive place.

And I agree with PP that the dad's agreement re the loan was unfair to start with. They could afford to pay for the school. If they didn't want to, they should have been clear about the budget and made her pick a lower cost school vs keeping her under their thumb for the rest of her life with this "loan." Or made her contribute during school from her own work (maybe this did happen.)

+1. For the restaurants, another option is to occasionally really lean into it and have a little fun- I wonder what would happen if OP went all out and ordered the most expensive meals, wine, etc. Would FIL be ok with splitting the bill 50/50 then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Yes, did you also inform the mortgage company, car payment place, and credit card that you would cease making payments after marriage? I hate to say it, but you sound like a dick.

“We shouldn’t split the bill because you ordered something more expensive than me?” You are not some poor 21 year old. When you are established and well off, you don’t complain about splitting restaurant bills, it is pathetic.

This. For the first part of the post, I was prepared to side with OP, but then it really went sideways. His complaints appear to be that:

- His FIL made an arrangement with his wife re financing her education that OP didn't like, and so he reneged on it when they married. That's a complaint that the FIL should have, not OP.
- His FIL doesn't pay for him when they vacation and or eat at expensive restaurants.

In the immortal words of Cameron, "Pardon my French, but you're an a$$hole!"

The key part of this is the FIL insists on the expensive restaurants and trips and gets mad if OP and wife decline. Keep declining/suggesting alternatives and let them get mad. Get separate checks when you do go to the expensive place.

And I agree with PP that the dad's agreement re the loan was unfair to start with. They could afford to pay for the school. If they didn't want to, they should have been clear about the budget and made her pick a lower cost school vs keeping her under their thumb for the rest of her life with this "loan." Or made her contribute during school from her own work (maybe this did happen.)

Disagree about the loans. Just because they can afford it, doesn't mean that she shouldn't have some skin in the game. OP must've known that she had to pay back the loan. The way FIL sees it, even if she's gone back to school, she can still afford to pay it back since her other half can afford it. FIL is seeing them as one unit, as it should be.

Unless you agreed up front or have a prenup about not taking on your spouse's debt, it does become your problem.

My spouse had a vacation house before we got together that they were paying the mortgage on. After we bought a house together and got married, our combined finances paid for that vacation home. They could not afford two mortgages. I knew that going into it even though I didn't like it (we did eventually sell it because I really did not want two mortgages).

The debt is not legally binding, so no, OP did not take on the debt when he married her. Sure seems that FIL sees it that way but what's he going to do, take them to court? lol.

It's not about what's legal. It's about honoring your word. She said she would pay it back. He knew she had to pay it back. It's wrong to then renege, irrespective of her circumstances. Plus, he can afford to pay it back. He just doesn't like how the FIL handles money.

Op is fine with paying for his nieces/nephews college but not paying back his wife's loan for college? If I were the FIL, I'd be mad, too. It doesn't matter if the FIL is wealthy. She was supposed to pay them back, and now her husband is telling the father no.

Definitely paternalistic, especially given how the wife feels she's stuck in the middle. She needs to grow up and act like an adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

100% The fact that they still funded it with 0% interest means that they were willing to support her but wanted her to understand what her choices meant. That's on her.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you should spend it on something that has low ROI. That's not a good use of money, and the FIL knows that.

As a blue collar worker who built up his own wealth, he's given her the means to do the same, but she's chosen a different path.

You, OP, don't know what it's like to not be wealthy and build up your wealth on your own. You come across as an elitist snob.

Ok but he was setting up his own daughter to fail- $200k loan knowing shw was going into a non-lucrative career just to make a point? I'm sorry but that's crummy parenting, there were way better ways to handle this. No wonder she felt like she had to marry the douchebag OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Meh. If the FIL wanted to be repaid like a bank then he should have set the loan up with formalities or just made his daughter take out actual loans. While I think in good conscience OP’s wife should try to pay something back, it also seems like the FIL is a cheapskate and possibly using the money to try to control his daughter. Possibly the FIL had no intention of ever collecting on the “loan” but is now acting like a bank that he has a rich son in law. And of course, one expects and hopes that a parent has more regard for the affordability of debt as compared to a shady payday lender …

[Anonymous]

I would pay back the "loan" in installments and use it as an excude to decline the invites for the next few years- e.g., rather than accepting their invitation to the Madives send them $20k payment instead. Most people need to make choices and can't do everything, I would just be upfront.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You need to let it go.

I had a similar issue where my parents paid for college, car, wedding and downpayment on a house. In-laws saddled dh with 80k in student loans, including a few parent plus loans we paid for them that didn’t even have his name on it. I paid off all the loans very quickly in full once we married. Despite both sides being retired with >10m, we pay our own way on every vacation and split all dinners.

I would be upset if someone ordered up the dinner bill. I’d ask for my own family’s check and he can pay his own. I’d also just not go on fancy vacations that I don’t want.

I bet a lot of this stems from him not being into education. My in-laws are very against universities.

I had to pay off my parents PLUS loans too, as well as my deseral loans. I think the difference here is that nobody actually took out any loans. I wonder if the ILs are not on as stable financial footing as they project and that's why they want their DD to "pay them back"? I find this aspect of the situation weird. The rest is whatever, OP can always decline the fancy dinners and vacations.

Sometimes parents who are weird and controlling with money can do sneaky and manipulative things like pay for something and then later claim that the child needs to pay them back. Or promise to pay for something and then backtrack leaving the child who was relying on the payment in dire straits. (Like the time my parent promised to pay for a surgery for my brother then backed out the day before the surgery.) Or withhold money due to the child to manipulate them (like the time my parent threatened to block an insurance payout to my brother unless he went to the college my parent approved of.) I have seen it all!

[Anonymous]

I don't get why if OP comes from so much wealth they're footing the bills for all of OP's extended family.

Wife needs therapy to see why she submits to these insufferable men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

That's debatable- an 18yo is too young to do a lot of things, and they would never be able to take out this amount on their own. Blue collar dad should never have funded the path if he didn't agree with it.

Blue collar dad wanted to still support his daughter to get a college education. He probably did discuss with her about the ROI on the degree but she still chose this path.

I had a similar discussion with my DC about their chosen major and choosing to go to expensive oos. We discussed at length with DC about what it will mean for their future. They are still insistent. I want to be supportive but they should have skin in the game. We have saved enough in their college savings to pay for three years, and could probably pay for the fourth out of our savings, but we aren't going to do that because they would rather use all of their inheritance money from their grandparents to go to this school for this major than go to a cheaper school or pick a more lucrative major. Again, we have had discussed what this means for them at length. Yes, they are 17/18 and don't know better. Does that mean that we parents should dictate what school they go to and what to major in? You'd probably call that controlling.

IMO, they have a high likelihood of struggling after graduation, but this was their choice. If we had said no to this major, and that we'd only pay for something like business or engineering, I'm sure you would've said we were being jerks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

If the FIL disapproved of the $200k college then the thing to do would have been to tell his daughter that he wouldn’t pay for it and be clear on what he would pay for. Not saddle her with an amorphous debt that she would probably never be able to repay. While OP’s approach to this was a bit … robust … I don’t think he was wrong to say that his money would not go to pay off the “debt.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You told your father-in-law that your wife wouldn’t be paying back a family loan? No wonder he’s pissed.

OP here. She would not be paying it back with marital income. Since she is now back in school and not earning income that means that I would not be making payments on it with my income.

That’s not how debt works. Jesus, I would hate you too.

Meh. If the FIL wanted to be repaid like a bank then he should have set the loan up with formalities or just made his daughter take out actual loans. While I think in good conscience OP’s wife should try to pay something back, it also seems like the FIL is a cheapskate and possibly using the money to try to control his daughter. Possibly the FIL had no intention of ever collecting on the “loan” but is now acting like a bank that he has a rich son in law. And of course, one expects and hopes that a parent has more regard for the affordability of debt as compared to a shady payday lender …

Yeah I was wondering that too. Like if she didn't marry someone wealthy would FIL still be inivitng them on expensive pay-your-own-way trips while collecting on this loan? Because when I was paying back my loans (not nearly as much as the one in question here) as young professional there was no way I could afford expensive travel. I was scouring Southwest deals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

PP. The idea of this "loan" is likely her father's comment on the usefulness of spending $200K on this degree.

There is obviously an attempt here to "teach" something to the daughter. You and your norms from your family of origin are external to it. Whether the lesson seems ridiculous to you is kind of beside the point.

It's not unusual for parents to try and get kids to pay for their college. Even rich ones. From my observation, it does take several generations of wealth to create the kind of family generosity engine that you have benefitted from.

An 18 year old is an adult. It may be the case that your wife could have picked a less expensive college and that a $200K education was an expensive choice she made as an adult. Her father may view that education as a pure luxury that she chose, knowing her career could never pay it back. As a self-made blue collar person, perhaps he did not agree with her path, despite providing the up-front money to fund it.

The more interesting thing here is that you appear to have signed up for an asymmetric financial relationship with your wife. Therefore, you will always be transferring your money (which you consider subsidized by your family's gifts) to cover your wife's expenses. You clearly do not see her as a 50% partner in your money since you do not want to fund the things that she would probably spend money on related to her parents if you did not object. It sounds like she has transferred her loyalty from one controlling man to another. That's why my sister and have chosen to remain high-earning working mothers. We don't want this kind of money-based financial dependency and guilt in our lives.

That's debatable- an 18yo is too young to do a lot of things, and they would never be able to take out this amount on their own. Blue collar dad should never have funded the path if he didn't agree with it.

Blue collar dad wanted to still support his daughter to get a college education. He probably did discuss with her about the ROI on the degree but she still chose this path.

I had a similar discussion with my DC about their chosen major and choosing to go to expensive oos. We discussed at length with DC about what it will mean for their future. They are still insistent. I want to be supportive but they should have skin in the game. We have saved enough in their college savings to pay for three years, and could probably pay for the fourth out of our savings, but we aren't going to do that because they would rather use all of their inheritance money from their grandparents to go to this school for this major than go to a cheaper school or pick a more lucrative major. Again, we have had discussed what this means for them at length. Yes, they are 17/18 and don't know better. Does that mean that we parents should dictate what school they go to and what to major in? You'd probably call that controlling.

IMO, they have a high likelihood of struggling after graduation, but this was their choice. If we had said no to this major, and that we'd only pay for something like business or engineering, I'm sure you would've said we were being jerks.

We literally have no way of knowing that. Good on you for having the hard discussions but plenty of parents don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

- He had her take out "loans" from him informally for college and a graduate degree. He was ticked off at me once I informed him the payments on these "loans" would come to an end once our marriage took place.

- He and my MIL invite us on very expensive vacations and then expect us to cover our own cost which can be in the tens of thousands of dollars for some of the trips he likes.

- Similar situation with restaurants. He will propose an expensive restaurant, order expensive items, and then want to split the check 50/50.

I cut down OP's post above to the examples.

OP, your FIL has a pay-as-you-go approach to life. He wants his kids to be responsible for their own choices but he is still generous enough to advance funds for your wife to do the schooling she wants to do.

You don't say if he has a sexist view of the world where a man/husband is responsible for his wife's money/debt/support but not the other way around. That may complicate things.

I agree that you do not have to pay your FIL for your wife's debts to him. Presumably she plans to work after getting the degree. And perhaps you are carrying the household expenses while she studies. Although maritally you may be jointly responsible for her debts legally, I think ethically she both undertook the obligation and should be prepared to pay it back. Have her settle the repayment plan on her parental loans with her parents and have the payments begin when she starts to earn money. Her dad wants to teach her responsibility. Marrying you so you could pay them off was not likely her plan. Have her figure it out.

Next the vacation. You and your wife should pay your own way if you go. If you do not want to go and do not want to pay, skip the vacation. Norms differ. Only some parents treat. Tell your FIL that your family of origin treats and you are not placing a priority on expensive vacations with your own money because you have x, y, z other goals. Let them get mad.

Restaurants. Split the check. It's another case of different norms. Neither party is more correct. Surely you can afford to socialize with them some of the time.

Your in-laws should be glad to have a son-in-law with zero debt. You should agree to do some things with them even if they aren't "worth it". Those are the concessions you make to be part of an in-law family. You cannot have everything your preferred way.

Sounds like your wife needs to step up her earning to stay in good grades with her family of origin. Encourage her to have a plan. If she decides to be an overexcited SAHM and wants to pay her dad back, you'd best get that hashed out ASAP.

OP here. The not paying the "loan" is a settled topic. There was no formal loan document. The "loan" was an absurd issue in my opinion. Due to her family's financial position she was a full pay student. She attended a private OOS school to the tune of over $200,000. The degree which she is currently pursuing (which I am paying for) is not a highly paid field and my wife will likely be doing a fair amount of charity work. I'm sorry, but the notion that her parents think its reasonable to try and saddle an 18 y/o with such a loan for a low paying degree at a private school is ridiculous and consequently they are the ones who paid after I came on the scene. This non-repayment though is such a miniscule percentage of their net worth that it did not make a difference in their circumstances.

No one made her choose the undergrad she did. It sounds like she knew her parents were loaning her the money so that’s on her.

You sound like an entitled patriarchal snob regarding money, especially as you reference how you’re funding her low paying degree. That was a marital decision. You clearly think your family is superior to hers. Pay back her undergrad and decline vacations you can’t afford or choose not to take.

Maybe, maybe not- I'm one of the PPs that had to pay back my parents' Plus loans and that was not communicated to me until after I graduated and they realized they couldn't pay them back.

The problem for the wife in this case was that because her parents were wealthy, she wouldn't have qualified for federal loans or other need based aid. I can understand not wanting to spend $200k on college but parents could have told her what they were willing to spend and helped her choose a more affordable option. I just can't imagine williningly saddling my own child with that kind of debt if I didn't have to. If she hadn't married rich that debt to her parents would define so much of her young adulthood. It's a weird look for people who apparently spend lavishly on other fronts.

OP sounds like a snob but the ILs don't sound so great either- two things can be true.

100%. The people acting like this was an arms-length loan that the wife fairly took on are really misunderstanding the family and financial dynamics. Whether the FIL made this “loan” knowing that it would be financially harmful to his daughter or whether he was just vaguely trying to show disapproval, it is clear that money was being used to control rather than to come up with a reasonable plan for college costs. While the daughter may also be at fault, in this scenario, she obviously had way less power and knowledge. Basically FIL did something sneaky and not morally supportable and is mad that he got called out on it.

The bigger issue here though is that OP’s wife needs to learn to deal with her own problems with her family of origin and figure out what is going on. If the FIL is trustworthy but naive about college costs and sincerely thought the plan was reasonable, then offering a modest payment plan in writing might make sense to make amends. But if (and this is what I suspect) the FIL is not reasonable and is a money manipulator, then OP’s wife needs to understand that she needs to put strong boundaries in place and probably just ignore his fake tears about how “we paid for college and now look what we get!!!”

OP also would be well served by shifting his approach to maintaining very strict financial boundaries. That means only going on vacations and restaurants that OP wants to pay for, not taking any gifts, not believing any promises to pay anything. But in a low key way so as not to trigger any drama.

Although it hasn’t been mentioned, OP and his wife need to mentally detach from any notion that they will get an inheritance from her parents. Even if they did everything perfectly (including repaying the college “loan”) it is very possible that the parents would fine some other way to create drama around their estate.

[Anonymous]

Where is your wife in all this?

Spending $200k on a a degree that doesn't result in a well paying job is not a good decision, and your wife needs to have skin in the game to understand why. That's why her father is making her pay for it. I don't understand why you are interfering with that.


Agree with PPs that you fundamentally don't understand how to create wealth on your own.