When does mean girl behavior start?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD experienced this in preschool (age 4). She was told by Girl A that she couldn't play with Girl B because Girl B was Girl A's best friend and my DD was not.

My observation is that often this behavior is learned from older siblings who are engaged in similarly competitive social dynamics.

I just always reiterate to my DD that a friend is someone who likes you and wants to spend time with you, and that if you feel bad when interacting with someone, that's a sign to find someone else to spend time with. She's gotten pretty resilient. She does play alone a lot, but also seems to be slowly making a variety of good friends (not a static group but just different friends so she has choices and can find someone to play with even if the first person she approaches rebuffs her).

It's hard.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:4/5.

I’ve worked with kids from 3-7 for almost twenty years and I see the behavior start in Pre-K/Kindergarten.

It’s when I’ll see kids go from impulsively being unkind (getting frustrated and hitting, calling someone a name) to true mean, manipulative behavior with the intent on hurting their peers. Excluding certain children in order to make them feel bad, finding a child’s weakness or sensitivity and attacking it in order to hurt them. When I see the intention behind the behavior, I consider that “mean girl” behavior although boys can exhibit this too, but it is mostly girls.

And 9/10 times it comes directly from the parents. We had this incredibly snotty, arrogant, mean mother who would make sarcastic, classist mean girl remarks to other mothers and staff but somehow managed to be well-liked in her circle. Her kid was 4 when she started exhibiting the exact same behaviors. Excluding kids based on perceived social status, clothing, etc. Being incredibly cruel to kids that were clearly struggling, “you are ugly and stupid” but always said in what they assume out or an adults earshot. When approached about it, they would dawn and butter up adults or any authority figure. At 4 already figuring out how to be sneaky enough to torment some kids but be a little teachers pet with adults. Really disheartening.

At least the kids you know still knew they had to butter up the adults. DD’s bully was confident enough to be blatantly rude to adults and say mean things to the kids she bullied right in front of grownups. Mother turned a blind eye of course.

And the father? Has he no responsibility in this? The internalized misogyny here is crazy. Boys and men are horrible to each other too! Y’all are working for the patriarchy and not even getting paid.

[Anonymous]

I guess I'm the odd person out here, but is OP sure this is a permanent thing?

Little kids say mean things sometimes. Sometimes they are over it in a day or two. OP is only getting one side of the story here.

There have actually been threads on here about kids telling classmates "You aren't invited to my birthday party" as a form of revenge. An invitation to a birthday party is a kind of social currency in kindergarten.

Saying "Yoou're not my friend" can be a form of retaliation too. I want to ride on the merry go round and you won't get off so I can have a turn. "You're not my friend." Or the other child waits until your child wants to join in some game and then says "You can't play with me; you're not my friend." what they really mean is "since you souldn't let me play on the merry go round, I'm not going to let you play in our game." Your kid tells you the part about the other child excluding your D from the game and saying "You aren't my friend" but leaves out not letting the other child on the merry go round earlier.

Of course, if this is happening repeatedly, that's an entirely different story.

But make sure this isn't a "one off" thing before getting bent out of shape by it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:4/5.

I’ve worked with kids from 3-7 for almost twenty years and I see the behavior start in Pre-K/Kindergarten.

It’s when I’ll see kids go from impulsively being unkind (getting frustrated and hitting, calling someone a name) to true mean, manipulative behavior with the intent on hurting their peers. Excluding certain children in order to make them feel bad, finding a child’s weakness or sensitivity and attacking it in order to hurt them. When I see the intention behind the behavior, I consider that “mean girl” behavior although boys can exhibit this too, but it is mostly girls.

And 9/10 times it comes directly from the parents. We had this incredibly snotty, arrogant, mean mother who would make sarcastic, classist mean girl remarks to other mothers and staff but somehow managed to be well-liked in her circle. Her kid was 4 when she started exhibiting the exact same behaviors. Excluding kids based on perceived social status, clothing, etc. Being incredibly cruel to kids that were clearly struggling, “you are ugly and stupid” but always said in what they assume out or an adults earshot. When approached about it, they would dawn and butter up adults or any authority figure. At 4 already figuring out how to be sneaky enough to torment some kids but be a little teachers pet with adults. Really disheartening.

At least the kids you know still knew they had to butter up the adults. DD’s bully was confident enough to be blatantly rude to adults and say mean things to the kids she bullied right in front of grownups. Mother turned a blind eye of course.

And the father? Has he no responsibility in this? The internalized misogyny here is crazy. Boys and men are horrible to each other too! Y’all are working for the patriarchy and not even getting paid.

I hate to say it but the father was a big time corporate hot shot who worked all the time. So most of the interactions regarding the kid involved the mother. You can rage all you want but that’s what happened. He’s guilty of not being involved I suppose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is early mean girl stuff and we started seeing it in kindergarten (last year). Typically from girls who have older sisters.

+1. My daughter is in PreK (but the cut off is early, so a lot of girls turn 5 in June/July before school starts - so older kids than what one might expect) and this is definitely happening. It's also more girls with older sisters. There is nothing wrong with kids voicing their preferences, but saying "you're my friend, I don't want to play with you" is hurtful. Let's not pretend that a girl who is told that by one or more of her peers is not going to go home and feel bad and not want to go to school or be out at recess. Empathy and kindness are just as important as having preferences. But OP, I wouldn't exclude the mean girl from your daughter's birthday (but I don't blame you for thinking about it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

+1. The person who the PP is responding to sounds like a mean girl herself + is also probably the mom of a mean girl. Let's not adopt the language of feminism to elide mean girl/relational aggression behavior. It's hurtful, it causes mental health issues, and it's likely not even healthy for the person doing the bullying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

DP - I’m fine with relational aggression. Glad to use it. The issue, as PP correctly pointed out, is that there’s no parallel term for boys, just like there’s no parallel term for b****.

Defaulting to “mean girls” because “everyone knows it” is lazy at the expense of girls. It’s not misogynist to point out that we have unkind, gender-based slurs for girls and women (“mean girl,” “b****”) and nothing similar for men. Heck, add “slut” to the list. It’s not okay to use those terms because you’re too craven to describe it for what it actually is, regardless of gender. If someone asks you what you mean by relational aggression, you tell them. It’s not that hard.

Interestingly, research shows that girls with advanced language development are at increased risk for using relational aggression so yes, that plays a role. It’s not the sole determinant, of course, but it’s there. This issue isn’t all or nothing.

[Anonymous]

It starts in middle school, but you can usually tell before the kid is born by watching the mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually have an Evite ready to go inviting the full class. My daughter was pretty clear she didn’t want to invite a girl who clearly told her she wasn’t her friend. My daughter doesn’t want to invite this girl.

When we get a whole-class birthday invite, I ask my kid "Do you like this kid? Is he your friend, and do you want to go to his party?" Nobody wants to go to a party celebrating somebody they hate. That solves a lot of the issue. Maybe explain to your kid this is how it works, and as a rule we do not do exclusion. The guest can simply decline the invitation. This is not like school where the kids are forced to show up.

If she really needs to omit one person, then come up with a different group, not the whole class.

So wait you are teaching your child that if someone tells you they army your friend you should continue to interact with them? That’s not healthy.

Your assuming PP's kid is telling them the truth. It's just as likely that they are picking on the girl and this is another opportunity to rub it in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

DP - I’m fine with relational aggression. Glad to use it. The issue, as PP correctly pointed out, is that there’s no parallel term for boys, just like there’s no parallel term for b****.

Defaulting to “mean girls” because “everyone knows it” is lazy at the expense of girls. It’s not misogynist to point out that we have unkind, gender-based slurs for girls and women (“mean girl,” “b****”) and nothing similar for men. Heck, add “slut” to the list. It’s not okay to use those terms because you’re too craven to describe it for what it actually is, regardless of gender. If someone asks you what you mean by relational aggression, you tell them. It’s not that hard.

Interestingly, research shows that girls with advanced language development are at increased risk for using relational aggression so yes, that plays a role. It’s not the sole determinant, of course, but it’s there. This issue isn’t all or nothing.

^ thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

+1. The person who the PP is responding to sounds like a mean girl herself + is also probably the mom of a mean girl. Let's not adopt the language of feminism to elide mean girl/relational aggression behavior. It's hurtful, it causes mental health issues, and it's likely not even healthy for the person doing the bullying.

Who’s doing the name calling here? I’m not defending the behavior at all.