When does mean girl behavior start?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't start in kindergarten.

Mean girl behavior, as in the bullying kind, doesn't really emerge until middle school.

There are incidents where kids are are unkind to each other in younger years but that's more just fumbling and immaturity. It's not systemic and deliberate taunting/exclusion etc.

I'm an elementary school teacher and this is categorically untrue. Deliberate meanness/exclusion absolutely starts before middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

Then we need a better term because "relational aggression" doesn't get used and is probably too technical to catch on. I personally don't find "mean girl" misogynist because I think it's accurate -- this is mean behavior that is mostly done by girls against girls.

I wonder how people would feel about the term "toxic femininity", since it really is kind of the flip side of toxic masculinity. These behaviors are the result of gender dynamics that discourage healthy relationships in favor of using classically gendered behavior in order to assert dominance over others. For boys this can take the form of hyper-maculinity, physical dominance/intimidation of both girls and other boys, and the rejection of anything associated with women or femininity as less than. For girls this can take the form of performing feminine "niceness" while using covert/manipulative behaviors to assert dominance of other girls and to curry the favor of boys and adults (i.e. people in positions of power and authority). They are different behaviors because boys and girls are dealing with different expectations and stereotypes.

Would those of you who hate the phrase mean girl accept the phrase toxic femininity? I think it's less descriptive, personally, but more accurate than relational aggression, which feels too broad and non-specific.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

Then we need a better term because "relational aggression" doesn't get used and is probably too technical to catch on. I personally don't find "mean girl" misogynist because I think it's accurate -- this is mean behavior that is mostly done by girls against girls.

I wonder how people would feel about the term "toxic femininity", since it really is kind of the flip side of toxic masculinity. These behaviors are the result of gender dynamics that discourage healthy relationships in favor of using classically gendered behavior in order to assert dominance over others. For boys this can take the form of hyper-maculinity, physical dominance/intimidation of both girls and other boys, and the rejection of anything associated with women or femininity as less than. For girls this can take the form of performing feminine "niceness" while using covert/manipulative behaviors to assert dominance of other girls and to curry the favor of boys and adults (i.e. people in positions of power and authority). They are different behaviors because boys and girls are dealing with different expectations and stereotypes.

Would those of you who hate the phrase mean girl accept the phrase toxic femininity? I think it's less descriptive, personally, but more accurate than relational aggression, which feels too broad and non-specific.

Well since it is really just a result of the misogyny and toxic masculinity that has been the driving force of Western culture, I’d say, no, I would not accept that. Also there are plenty of boys that pick up this skill set later and we call them leaders. Turn on C-SPAN.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

Then we need a better term because "relational aggression" doesn't get used and is probably too technical to catch on. I personally don't find "mean girl" misogynist because I think it's accurate -- this is mean behavior that is mostly done by girls against girls.

I wonder how people would feel about the term "toxic femininity", since it really is kind of the flip side of toxic masculinity. These behaviors are the result of gender dynamics that discourage healthy relationships in favor of using classically gendered behavior in order to assert dominance over others. For boys this can take the form of hyper-maculinity, physical dominance/intimidation of both girls and other boys, and the rejection of anything associated with women or femininity as less than. For girls this can take the form of performing feminine "niceness" while using covert/manipulative behaviors to assert dominance of other girls and to curry the favor of boys and adults (i.e. people in positions of power and authority). They are different behaviors because boys and girls are dealing with different expectations and stereotypes.

Would those of you who hate the phrase mean girl accept the phrase toxic femininity? I think it's less descriptive, personally, but more accurate than relational aggression, which feels too broad and non-specific.

Well since it is really just a result of the misogyny and toxic masculinity that has been the driving force of Western culture, I’d say, no, I would not accept that. Also there are plenty of boys that pick up this skill set later and we call them leaders. Turn on C-SPAN.

You don’t understand the behavior set.

You are going to refuse to acknowledge that girls do a negative thing that boys don’t do no matter what anyone says. You are committed to the idea that any criticism of girls/women is misogynist (I’m a woman with a daughter, by the way). It’s fascinating to me.

[Anonymous]

My DD was bullied out of preschool by two twin girls who convinced the other 5 girls in the class to stop hanging out with my DD. It starts early. My daughter has dealt with mean girls in 4th and 8th grade. The worst year for us was my older daughter's 2nd semester of 7th and 1st semester of 8th which happened to be the same year as our other daughter's 2nd semester of 4th and 1st of 5th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

Then we need a better term because "relational aggression" doesn't get used and is probably too technical to catch on. I personally don't find "mean girl" misogynist because I think it's accurate -- this is mean behavior that is mostly done by girls against girls.

I wonder how people would feel about the term "toxic femininity", since it really is kind of the flip side of toxic masculinity. These behaviors are the result of gender dynamics that discourage healthy relationships in favor of using classically gendered behavior in order to assert dominance over others. For boys this can take the form of hyper-maculinity, physical dominance/intimidation of both girls and other boys, and the rejection of anything associated with women or femininity as less than. For girls this can take the form of performing feminine "niceness" while using covert/manipulative behaviors to assert dominance of other girls and to curry the favor of boys and adults (i.e. people in positions of power and authority). They are different behaviors because boys and girls are dealing with different expectations and stereotypes.

Would those of you who hate the phrase mean girl accept the phrase toxic femininity? I think it's less descriptive, personally, but more accurate than relational aggression, which feels too broad and non-specific.

Well since it is really just a result of the misogyny and toxic masculinity that has been the driving force of Western culture, I’d say, no, I would not accept that. Also there are plenty of boys that pick up this skill set later and we call them leaders. Turn on C-SPAN.

You don’t understand the behavior set.

You are going to refuse to acknowledge that girls do a negative thing that boys don’t do no matter what anyone says. You are committed to the idea that any criticism of girls/women is misogynist (I’m a woman with a daughter, by the way). It’s fascinating to me.

That’s not even remotely what is being said. You lack reading comprehension. I’m not gonna retype everything again simply because you don’t understand.

[Anonymous]

My kid is an introvert and she used to say “I don’t want to play with you” when other kids approached. We’ve coached her to say “I’d like to play alone right now” instead. I’m sure some kids think she’s mean, but she truly sees recess as a chance to take a break from the classroom dynamic and play alone.

In early elementary school, kids are just learning how to express themselves, when to tell white lies, and how to manage relationships. I try to assume that kids who say impolite things are not mean; they’re just figuring out social dynamics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is an introvert and she used to say “I don’t want to play with you” when other kids approached. We’ve coached her to say “I’d like to play alone right now” instead. I’m sure some kids think she’s mean, but she truly sees recess as a chance to take a break from the classroom dynamic and play alone.

In early elementary school, kids are just learning how to express themselves, when to tell white lies, and how to manage relationships. I try to assume that kids who say impolite things are not mean; they’re just figuring out social dynamics.

This is fair. Throughout my life, there have been tagalong, people who I would prefer weren’t there. I’m actually polite so I’m sure I make them feel welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

Then we need a better term because "relational aggression" doesn't get used and is probably too technical to catch on. I personally don't find "mean girl" misogynist because I think it's accurate -- this is mean behavior that is mostly done by girls against girls.

I wonder how people would feel about the term "toxic femininity", since it really is kind of the flip side of toxic masculinity. These behaviors are the result of gender dynamics that discourage healthy relationships in favor of using classically gendered behavior in order to assert dominance over others. For boys this can take the form of hyper-maculinity, physical dominance/intimidation of both girls and other boys, and the rejection of anything associated with women or femininity as less than. For girls this can take the form of performing feminine "niceness" while using covert/manipulative behaviors to assert dominance of other girls and to curry the favor of boys and adults (i.e. people in positions of power and authority). They are different behaviors because boys and girls are dealing with different expectations and stereotypes.

Would those of you who hate the phrase mean girl accept the phrase toxic femininity? I think it's less descriptive, personally, but more accurate than relational aggression, which feels too broad and non-specific.

Well since it is really just a result of the misogyny and toxic masculinity that has been the driving force of Western culture, I’d say, no, I would not accept that. Also there are plenty of boys that pick up this skill set later and we call them leaders. Turn on C-SPAN.

You don’t understand the behavior set.

You are going to refuse to acknowledge that girls do a negative thing that boys don’t do no matter what anyone says. You are committed to the idea that any criticism of girls/women is misogynist (I’m a woman with a daughter, by the way). It’s fascinating to me.

DP - lady, you’re the one who decided that either me or *my daughter* was a mean girl, simply because I don’t like the term mean girl.

I don’t like any term that can be weaponized solely against girls and women, especially on an individual level. “Mean girl” “b****” “slut”. Not acceptable. No parallel among boys and men. I’m fine with criticizing people who deserve it; I am NOT fine with gender-based insults, especially when they exist solely for women.

Toxic masculinity and femininity are too broad. You seem to dislike relational aggression solely because it means you have to clarify what it means, so rather than taking 30 seconds to do that, you default to “mean girl.” It’s bizarre.

[Anonymous]

There's nothing truly malicious in it until quite a bit older, but "excluding" behavior (e.g. "You're not my friend, you can't play with us") starts at 3 years old. Just read it in a child psychologist's book on parenting 3-year-olds, and observed it firsthand among my 3yo DD and her friends. I just keep repeating (unemotionally) that it's not a nice thing to say.

In my own childhood, true bullying began around third grade.

[Anonymous]

Can we not derail he topic at hand with terminology. The fact is that there are a set of behaviors closely related to girls and OP is looking for advice how to handle it. You obviously had have an axe to grind and are kind of extremist. I posted about my experience with these behaviors and you immediately jumped on me for not including the father when the entire situation revolved around the mother. It’s not helpful, go away.

[Anonymous]

I have a 2 1/2 year old trying it out in my daycare. She is trying out what she is exposed to from kindergarten age sister and her friends. Poor kid is so confused when I correct her and provide other wording or options. They are exposed to it young, they learn it young, so we need to be working with on it at a young age.

Didn’t use to see it until around age 4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't start in kindergarten.

Mean girl behavior, as in the bullying kind, doesn't really emerge until middle school.

There are incidents where kids are are unkind to each other in younger years but that's more just fumbling and immaturity. It's not systemic and deliberate taunting/exclusion etc.

Exactly, they are still trying to figure out how to exist in society. They're going to mess up and say some things that are viewed as unkind, even if there is no malice behind it. That's why you talk through this behavior when you see it to explain why that may be perceived as unkind even if that wasn't the intent.

[Anonymous]

It starts early. For both of my kids, it started in K. My DD is now in 1st and it's relentless. I don't have a problem with someone saying "I don't want to play with you" because we've taught our kids not to take it personally. Sometimes kids simply won't want to play with you, so find something else to do (shout out to Daniel Tiger for the catchy little song on this topic). But there is a lot of really mean language, exclusion, "clubs" where the leader dictates who gets to join, gossiping about classmates, Queen Bee stuff happening. I know young kids are still learning how to engage with others, and some are picking it up from older siblings/cousins/neighbors, but I also blame the parents. Something has changed with parenting and/or society where this type of behavior isn't being quashed in kids at home. I do not remember it being this bad this early when I was growing up.

[Anonymous]

“Mean girl” is a misogynistic trope I’d avoid as a woman and mother.