When does mean girl behavior start?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And another thing: boy, do I hate twin day. I had a "best friend" as a little girl, so it is not a bad association for me personally. But I despise the desperate scramble every time there is a twin day at school.

I don’t understand why twin day exists. For kids with a best buddy, they could dress the same whenever they wanted. For kids without one, it’s very stressful. Every year I’m like “why is this a thing? What does it have to do with school spirit?” I don’t get it.

My oldest is now a teenager. In all the years they had twin day, I think he participated once. I knew his friend had the same Minecraft sweatshirt and they wore the same shirt on twin day.

The best response I ever saw to this was one year when another mom did an email blast to the whole class saying "twin day can make many of us feel left out. X (her daughter) will be wearing Y tomorrow and you are all welcome to join her in wearing Y too."

Love this idea. NP here. What is twin day and where did it origninate? Never heard of it! Is it just two kids pairing up and dressing alike? Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And another thing: boy, do I hate twin day. I had a "best friend" as a little girl, so it is not a bad association for me personally. But I despise the desperate scramble every time there is a twin day at school.

I don’t understand why twin day exists. For kids with a best buddy, they could dress the same whenever they wanted. For kids without one, it’s very stressful. Every year I’m like “why is this a thing? What does it have to do with school spirit?” I don’t get it.

My oldest is now a teenager. In all the years they had twin day, I think he participated once. I knew his friend had the same Minecraft sweatshirt and they wore the same shirt on twin day.

The best response I ever saw to this was one year when another mom did an email blast to the whole class saying "twin day can make many of us feel left out. X (her daughter) will be wearing Y tomorrow and you are all welcome to join her in wearing Y too."

Love this idea. NP here. What is twin day and where did it origninate? Never heard of it! Is it just two kids pairing up and dressing alike? Why?

Not pp, our ES has a spirt week once a quarter, one day will be school colors, one day will be sports jerseys, they'll have crazy hat day, and they'll have twin day

[Anonymous]

My child goes to school with a girl that had been bullying others since PK3. Even the teachers readily admit the child can be very cruel.

Also, the child's mother has a prominent position on the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: And another thing: boy, do I hate twin day. I had a "best friend" as a little girl, so it is not a bad association for me personally. But I despise the desperate scramble every time there is a twin day at school.

I don’t understand why twin day exists. For kids with a best buddy, they could dress the same whenever they wanted. For kids without one, it’s very stressful. Every year I’m like “why is this a thing? What does it have to do with school spirit?” I don’t get it.

My oldest is now a teenager. In all the years they had twin day, I think he participated once. I knew his friend had the same Minecraft sweatshirt and they wore the same shirt on twin day.

The best response I ever saw to this was one year when another mom did an email blast to the whole class saying "twin day can make many of us feel left out. X (her daughter) will be wearing Y tomorrow and you are all welcome to join her in wearing Y too."

Love this idea. NP here. What is twin day and where did it origninate? Never heard of it! Is it just two kids pairing up and dressing alike? Why?

Not pp, our ES has a spirt week once a quarter, one day will be school colors, one day will be sports jerseys, they'll have crazy hat day, and they'll have twin day

Ours is the same. I dread it every time. My kid has never had a successful twin day. Either she can't find a twin, or she'll think she's found a twin but the other kid will show up not dressed in the agreed upon outfit, or something. I hate it so much. My kid is actually fine socially at school but she doesn't have a best friend and this is a source of sadness for her. Twin day just reinforces that sadness for her. It would be like if your kid felt self-conscious about having crooked teeth and the school organized a whole day around celebrating having straight teeth. Wtf, why would you do this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Also wanted to note that boys who bully often have low social status in a classroom or playground, thus are easily singled out and punished. Mean girl behavior is almost always performed by the girls with high social status. Sometimes lower status girls will try to do it, and they will get called out and fail because they lack the social status to pull it off. That's what makes mean girl behavior so devious. And it's also why teachers and parents can sometimes endorse and reinforce mean girl behaviors -- they are also taken in by the high social status of the pretty, put together girls with the well-liked parents, and respond well to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Please tell me what label for boys corresponds to “mean girl” for girls. (Or for “b****” or “slut”). There is none. As the parent of two boys, I can tell you that physically aggressive behavior among boys is ignored ALL.THE.TIME. “Boys will be boys!”

I’ll wait.

I’m not defending relational aggression at all. It’s very damaging, particularly between children. But so is physical aggression - and if you think that rich, white boys don’t get away with it, you are staggeringly naive. If you think that rich, white men don’t get away with it in the form of intimate partner violence, you are staggeringly naive.

Back to relational aggression and what to do about it, I’ve been head coach of our school’s Girls on the Run program (and my daughter’s team) for the past three years. I’d encourage anyone interested to sign up - coaches receive a lot of support and it’s a fantastic, evidence-based program. Girl Scouts can be another forum for helping girls learn how to support each other, though without the specific focus that GOTR has. I plan to coach the rough GOTR equivalent for boys, Let Me Run, once my daughter ages out.

[Anonymous]

My 3yo has been mean girling me for years now. I wish I was kidding. It’s getting more sophisticated as she ages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Please tell me what label for boys corresponds to “mean girl” for girls. (Or for “b****” or “slut”). There is none. As the parent of two boys, I can tell you that physically aggressive behavior among boys is ignored ALL.THE.TIME. “Boys will be boys!”

I’ll wait.

I’m not defending relational aggression at all. It’s very damaging, particularly between children. But so is physical aggression - and if you think that rich, white boys don’t get away with it, you are staggeringly naive. If you think that rich, white men don’t get away with it in the form of intimate partner violence, you are staggeringly naive.

Back to relational aggression and what to do about it, I’ve been head coach of our school’s Girls on the Run program (and my daughter’s team) for the past three years. I’d encourage anyone interested to sign up - coaches receive a lot of support and it’s a fantastic, evidence-based program. Girl Scouts can be another forum for helping girls learn how to support each other, though without the specific focus that GOTR has. I plan to coach the rough GOTR equivalent for boys, Let Me Run, once my daughter ages out.

We're not talking about intimate partner violence. We are talking about the behavior of grade school children. And the truth is that boys do not engage in relational aggression anywhere near the frequency that girls do, nor with the level of sophistication.

Some people seem to think that if you ever describe the collective behavior of women as negative, you are being misogynist. It's this idea that women are inherently good or something, or that because men do terrible things women must be great. Nope. Men do worse things than women because they have more power than women. Full stop. Women are no better than men.

And mean girl behaviors are one way that women seek to gain power, by positioning themselves over other women. They know they cannot position themselves over men, so they find ways to advance their status over that of other girls/women.

This is why there is no male equivalent. Men and boys are not in the same social position as women and girls, and thus do not use this behavior to improve their position relative to other men. In fact, because these behaviors (gossip, exclusion, in-group/out group dynamics) are so strongly associated with women, men avoid them. Because from a status perspective, men know that women are perceived as less than, so they will go to lengths to avoid doing things perceived as feminine.

This idea that we can't criticize mean girl dynamics because we don't criticize boys for the same behavior, when they don't engage in this behavior, is some weird pretzel logic that doesn't actually makes sense.

Girls on the Run is a good org, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Please tell me what label for boys corresponds to “mean girl” for girls. (Or for “b****” or “slut”). There is none. As the parent of two boys, I can tell you that physically aggressive behavior among boys is ignored ALL.THE.TIME. “Boys will be boys!”

I’ll wait.

I’m not defending relational aggression at all. It’s very damaging, particularly between children. But so is physical aggression - and if you think that rich, white boys don’t get away with it, you are staggeringly naive. If you think that rich, white men don’t get away with it in the form of intimate partner violence, you are staggeringly naive.

Back to relational aggression and what to do about it, I’ve been head coach of our school’s Girls on the Run program (and my daughter’s team) for the past three years. I’d encourage anyone interested to sign up - coaches receive a lot of support and it’s a fantastic, evidence-based program. Girl Scouts can be another forum for helping girls learn how to support each other, though without the specific focus that GOTR has. I plan to coach the rough GOTR equivalent for boys, Let Me Run, once my daughter ages out.

My sense is that you have been called out for mean girl behavior in the past, or your DD has, and your defense is "that's misogynist!"

You are missing the forrest for the trees. Yes, you are correct that there are different expectations and standards applied to boys and girls. This is WHY mean girl dynamics exist. Girls are not allowed to be overtly mean or aggressive. They are punished for those behaviors much more than boys are. Girls are told over and over again that they must be nice, and friendly.

But girls, just like boys, want to win, want to angle for position, want to be popular. But they are told they must be nice, always be nice. So what does a girl who wants to win and be popular and get the best position and the highest status do? She mean girls! Boys don't have to do this because (1) boys are often granted higher status than girls simply by being boys, and (2) they are allowed to jockey for position in overt ways, they are allowed and even encouraged to be competitive. It is discouraged in girls.

You keep demanding what the male equivalent of mean girl dynamics are. Ok. It's toxic masculinity. Are you starting to get it? Can women be toxically masculine? Why don't more people criticize women for toxic masculinity?! This is reverse sexism!

That is what you sound like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Please tell me what label for boys corresponds to “mean girl” for girls. (Or for “b****” or “slut”). There is none. As the parent of two boys, I can tell you that physically aggressive behavior among boys is ignored ALL.THE.TIME. “Boys will be boys!”

I’ll wait.

I’m not defending relational aggression at all. It’s very damaging, particularly between children. But so is physical aggression - and if you think that rich, white boys don’t get away with it, you are staggeringly naive. If you think that rich, white men don’t get away with it in the form of intimate partner violence, you are staggeringly naive.

Back to relational aggression and what to do about it, I’ve been head coach of our school’s Girls on the Run program (and my daughter’s team) for the past three years. I’d encourage anyone interested to sign up - coaches receive a lot of support and it’s a fantastic, evidence-based program. Girl Scouts can be another forum for helping girls learn how to support each other, though without the specific focus that GOTR has. I plan to coach the rough GOTR equivalent for boys, Let Me Run, once my daughter ages out.

We're not talking about intimate partner violence. We are talking about the behavior of grade school children. And the truth is that boys do not engage in relational aggression anywhere near the frequency that girls do, nor with the level of sophistication.

Some people seem to think that if you ever describe the collective behavior of women as negative, you are being misogynist. It's this idea that women are inherently good or something, or that because men do terrible things women must be great. Nope. Men do worse things than women because they have more power than women. Full stop. Women are no better than men.

And mean girl behaviors are one way that women seek to gain power, by positioning themselves over other women. They know they cannot position themselves over men, so they find ways to advance their status over that of other girls/women.

This is why there is no male equivalent. Men and boys are not in the same social position as women and girls, and thus do not use this behavior to improve their position relative to other men. In fact, because these behaviors (gossip, exclusion, in-group/out group dynamics) are so strongly associated with women, men avoid them. Because from a status perspective, men know that women are perceived as less than, so they will go to lengths to avoid doing things perceived as feminine.

This idea that we can't criticize mean girl dynamics because we don't criticize boys for the same behavior, when they don't engage in this behavior, is some weird pretzel logic that doesn't actually makes sense.

Girls on the Run is a good org, though.

Man, you’re really doubling down on bashing girls, aren’t you? Interesting. I brought up IPV because *you* brought up relational aggression among adults. The point that I and others have been trying to make isn’t that relational aggression isn’t a problem, it’s that labeling CHILDREN as “mean girls” is unacceptable for multiple reasons, one of which is the lack of a parallel term for boys. That discrepancy persists into adulthood.

If the OP had phrased this question differently, e.g., a girl in her class tells her she doesn’t want to be friends; do I still need to invite this kid to her birthday party, the responses would have been very different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

Please tell me what label for boys corresponds to “mean girl” for girls. (Or for “b****” or “slut”). There is none. As the parent of two boys, I can tell you that physically aggressive behavior among boys is ignored ALL.THE.TIME. “Boys will be boys!”

I’ll wait.

I’m not defending relational aggression at all. It’s very damaging, particularly between children. But so is physical aggression - and if you think that rich, white boys don’t get away with it, you are staggeringly naive. If you think that rich, white men don’t get away with it in the form of intimate partner violence, you are staggeringly naive.

Back to relational aggression and what to do about it, I’ve been head coach of our school’s Girls on the Run program (and my daughter’s team) for the past three years. I’d encourage anyone interested to sign up - coaches receive a lot of support and it’s a fantastic, evidence-based program. Girl Scouts can be another forum for helping girls learn how to support each other, though without the specific focus that GOTR has. I plan to coach the rough GOTR equivalent for boys, Let Me Run, once my daughter ages out.

My sense is that you have been called out for mean girl behavior in the past, or your DD has, and your defense is "that's misogynist!"

You are missing the forrest for the trees. Yes, you are correct that there are different expectations and standards applied to boys and girls. This is WHY mean girl dynamics exist. Girls are not allowed to be overtly mean or aggressive. They are punished for those behaviors much more than boys are. Girls are told over and over again that they must be nice, and friendly.

But girls, just like boys, want to win, want to angle for position, want to be popular. But they are told they must be nice, always be nice. So what does a girl who wants to win and be popular and get the best position and the highest status do? She mean girls! Boys don't have to do this because (1) boys are often granted higher status than girls simply by being boys, and (2) they are allowed to jockey for position in overt ways, they are allowed and even encouraged to be competitive. It is discouraged in girls.

You keep demanding what the male equivalent of mean girl dynamics are. Ok. It's toxic masculinity. Are you starting to get it? Can women be toxically masculine? Why don't more people criticize women for toxic masculinity?! This is reverse sexism!

That is what you sound like.

No, I’ve never been called mean, nor has DD. I also don’t need a condescending explanation of sex and gender dynamics. I mean, Lisa Damour has spoken out against use of the term “mean girls” because there’s no parallel among boys - is it because she’s a mean girl? Deciding that women who disagree with you are “mean girls” is… ironic.

Toxic masculinity is a good start, but it’s almost never used with boys.

[Anonymous]

So are you "mean girl" people suggesting that this behavior is innate to the female species?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It starts by preschool if not kindergarten.

Girls are horrible to each other. Women are horrible to each other, too. It never ends.

Teach your kindergartener to stand on her own two feet starting now. It's nice to have friends who are real friends, but if they are not real friends, then don't be afraid away.

Teaching young girls that they need to put up with being treated badly by other girls -- or worse, that something must be wrong with them if they reject that treatment from a group of girls -- is one of the worst things we as mothers can do to our girls. Another girl's mean girl behavior hould always be rejected. This is how you teach your daughter to respect herself, and her boundaries.

Teach your daughter to be strong, for real instead of merely wearing a pink t-shirt with some power girl slogan.

Yes to all of this. When I was a kid, my mom kept telling me "just be nice and the girls will like you" or "just ignore unkind behavior and it will stop." Hell no. I teach my kid that friends are not mean, they do not make fun of you, they don't talk about you behind your back, and they don't use exclusion as a weapon (there is a difference between simply not being included, which everyone must learn to accept sometimes, and being excluded in a targeted way intended to make you feel bad or left out). If anyone treats you this way, they are not your friend and you should focus your energy elsewhere. And also: don't do stuff like this to friends (to anyone but especially not to someone you consider a friend because it's more cruel when you behave this way but say "we're friends).

By the way, to the posters saying it's misogynist to call out the fact that girls engage in this behavior at much higher rates than boys do, and that it is, in fact, "mean" -- I actually think it's misogynist to ignore this phenomenon, which is well documented, and to pretend like girls (or women) are naturally kind to each other or that when they engage in this kind of relational aggression, that the victims are just misinterpreting or that they are just confused. These are the weapons girls use against each other. It absolutely is socialized into them and I think it's because girls and women are discouraged away from being direct or aggressive in any way. So they weaponize niceness in order to work out their aggression on each other in a way that they can claim innocence. That's why they engage in teasing ("I was just joking!"), gossip ("if I don't say it to her, it's not as mean"), exclusion ("what, does EVERYONE have to be invited to everything?"), and isolation ("[shrug] I don't know why no one hangs out with Kelly"). They learn they can do all of this but as long as they smile and are friendly generally, they can still be a "nice girl" who is well liked. It works. That's why they do it.

Meanwhile, when a girl is direct and honest, she will get a reputation for being unfriendly, aggressive, a complainer, or "no fun." A girl who says "hey, it hurt my feelings when you talked to me that way" is whiny and stirring up trouble. But the girl who said the hurtful thing? She's so nice, I'm sure she didn't mean it!

We make mean girls and then people complain that it's misogynist to acknowledge they exist. They do. We have to call this behavior out, whether it's happening in kindergarten or in the office.

Of course girls use language and advanced social tactics because in general girls are better at that than boys. The misogyny is giving it its own name while there is no unique name for boys when they are a bully they are just a bully but a girl can be a bully too - boys can’t be mean girls. So assigning it it’s own name gives it more attention and status scorn then the same behavior in boys. Also we call them mean girls because there is some expectation that girls will be nice and these mean girls are somehow an outlier so on that we agree.

(1) Boys can engage in “mean girl” behavior. In fact, I think you see this more than you used to because while girls have been restricted in their allowable behaviors, especially around aggression, for… ever, boys only recently started being more restricted in how they could express negative feelings. There’s increasing pressure on boys to be “nice” and “friendly” which translates, as it always has for girls into being indirect. Culturally, we are really struggling with the idea of direct and honest communication of unpleasant emotions and attitudes. So yes, boys can be “mean girls.”

(2) So then why say mean girl? The main reason is that it’s the easiest way to communicate on this set of behaviors. The technical term for it (and by “it” I mean the use of exclusion, teasing that appears good natured but isn’t, gossip, social isolation, and other indirect forms of aggression to lower the social status of peers while boosting your own) is “relational aggression.” But if you say “when does relational aggression start?” people don’t know what you’re talking about. If you say “when does mean girl behavior start?” people immediately know what you are talking about. Honestly, the movie Mean Girls (and the nonfiction book it was based on, which popularized the term “Queen bee”) is sort of a gift and a curse, because it boosted awareness of this behavior and how it manifests and why it’s damaging, but it also associated the behavior with girls in a way that I understands bothers people.

I do think there’s a difference between labeling someone a mean girl (labels are usually a bad idea with kids no matter what) and talking about “mean girl behaviors” as a set of recognizable behaviors.

But if you really hate the term, my suggestion is that you instead use relational aggression. But you seem to be arguing for no term at all, and I can’t endorse that. This is a real phenomenon, it’s a problem, and it is mot the natural result of girls’ “advanced language development.” It’s a form of aggression and it often escalates to bullying and can cause serious mental health problems, especially now with social media.

I’m not at all saying this is ok or appropriate behavior. So do tell me - what is the difference between a mean girl and a bully? Would you call a boy who engaged in relational aggression a bully or something else? People also know what you mean when we use a whole lot of words and terms that aren’t socially acceptable and derogatory so the idea that we’ll just use this misogynist term because Tina Fey and people get it really doesn’t hold water.

When a girl is being mean to your daughter you can simply say “Larla is mean” you don’t have to feed her this idea that there is something uniquely malignant in the feminine soul. Boys do do this as well it is just that the victims don’t talk about it as much and the fact that it often escalates to physical altercations makes us focus on that part instead of the relentless taunting,verbal abuse and exclusion.

I’d also like to point out that the reason most of the gay boys hang out with the girls in high school isn’t because they are more feminine, it is because the girls are the ones who are more empathic, accepting and inclusive but we don’t have a word for that do we.

Relational aggression IS bullying. The problem is that it's under the radar bullying, and it gets dismissed and ignored by teachers, parents, and other kids all the time. Please educate yourself on this behavior.

Relational aggression is MUCH more likely to be done by girls than boys. Aggressive boys will use overt bullying. They will shove a kid into a locker or call a kid names on the playground. Teachers and parents are alert to this kind of behavior and will call it out and tell kids not to do it. They will intervene (well, usually -- there are other dynamics that can prevent it from being addressed, but most people will agree it's not okay for kids to hit, kick, push, or name-call each other). As a result, when a boy says "Billy was mean to me" and an adult asks what Billy did, the boy can say "he hit me with a stick" or "he called me stupid" and the adult will generally believe the child and agree that this is "mean" behavior. Boys get called mean! This idea that boys are not criticized for mean or bullying behavior is crazy -- of course they are.

But relational aggression, or "mean girl" behavior, is covert. The problem is that the behavior is intended to seem either accidental or justifiable, by design. Instead of kicking or hitting or calling a girl a mean name, a mean girl will befriend the girl and then spread an unkind rumor about her. Mean girl behavior can be subtle and highly manipulative. Like the child gets invited to the birthday party, but is intentionally not told that everyone else will be dressed a certain way. And then at the party the girl will be told they just forgot. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell. Mean girl behavior can take time to discern because the girls who are really good at it are, by definition, excellent at manipulating perceptions in ways that position themselves as innocent or even as victims. Mean girl behavior involves a lot of gaslighting, and is much more often to involve a group dynamic, in which one or a small number of girls spearhead the gossip, exclusion, or other status undermining activity, and the rest of the group reinforces it by siding with the ringleaders. Bystanders are a big part of mean girl behavior.

Sure, there are individual boys who participate in relational aggression. But it's not common, and groups of boys generally do not perform relational aggression the way girls do. Thus: mean girls.

There is not a similar term for what boys do because BOYS DON'T DO THIS GENERALLY. People will call out boys who are bullies or how dismay mean tendencies. They'll just call them mean, or say "stay away from that boy, he's not nice" or whatever. Boys get labeled too, all the time.

But the mean girl phenomenon is hugely problematic because adults ignore it all the time. Sometimes adults even participate in it (I've seen plenty of parents participate in gossip about their child's peers, participate in exclusion via party invitations or activities, and otherwise support their kids in trying to harm the social status of peers while elevating their own). You will find adults who endorse this behavior as normal, even positive. I've seen it on these boards.

I'll stop calling it mean girl behavior when girls stop doing it. AND when women stop doing it, because plenty of girls grow up to do this in adulthood as well.

It's not misogyny to call it what it is. If you don't like it, do something about it.

So say there was some other group that did a negative activity more or differently than others, would it be ok to call it with a specific modifier. Say black people did something more would it be ok to say "that's black kid behavior" or "classic Catholic kid behavior"?

let me be clear, relational aggression is bad. It should not be encouraged and it should be noted and called out. My beef is with the term "mean girls". It is derogatory and misogynistic and does nothing but separate girls and women and reinforce stereotypes. Mothers and fathers need to teach their girls that the way in which we talk about girls and women is important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't start in kindergarten.

Mean girl behavior, as in the bullying kind, doesn't really emerge until middle school.

There are incidents where kids are are unkind to each other in younger years but that's more just fumbling and immaturity. It's not systemic and deliberate taunting/exclusion etc.

I experienced starting in kindergarten. Don't know why everyone thinks it starts in middle school.