Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Thank you. I certainly don't plan on wearing a hijab and am grateful that I don't have to in the US in order not to be thought of as an immoral/promiscuous person.

I am interested in figuring out what women in the Muslim world think about the hijab and this thread has told me that there is far from uniformity of opinion for Muslim women. I am "cheering on" the side that finds this practice objectionable as a societal requirement. I admit that contingent currently seems to be on the losing side of the debate in the Muslim world.

That being said, like other posters, I defend a hijabi's right to wear the veil in the US should she choose to do so.

Are you? Every time a Muslim woman chimed in to explain her reasons for wearing the hijab, you (or other posters who think like you) attempted to dissect her reasoning, argue with her and do everything in your power to prove her wrong. You weren't interested in her reasons. You were interested in telling her she's wrong.

Different PP here. You're seeing our frustration. We're looking for explanations that make sense to us. I know your explanations make sense to many Muslims, but you're not talking to Muslims. You're talking to Western women.

If you don't want to talk to Western women, don't come on DCUM. You apparently expect us to accept your explanations at face value, to say "you're right, my hair is nothing but a sexual weapon, and leaving it uncovered will lead to STDs and higher divorce rates than in the Middle East." But we reject this thinking as sexist, the Quran doesn't mention covering hair, and divorce rates in Muslim countries are actually high (also, young brides and polygamy). So we're looking for something better. If you have a reason that isn't sexist, oppressive, and actually out of step with the Quran, I guarantee most of us will slap ourselves on the forehead and say, "Oh, that makes sense!"

And you will not find it in Islamic practice, my dear. Thats why you are a non Muslim and Muslims retain their faith. Move on now.

Faith in what? in some entity that obviously places women in a subservient role?

Faith is a cop out. Because you have no reason for covering, you use the excuse of faith. But if your holy book is all that and a bag of chips, it would state that women must cover (anywhere from hijab to burqa). But it doesn't. Initially, veiling was associated with high status. You see that in parts of Europe. My friend, who comes from a very high-ranking family in Spain, showed me very ornate scarves worn by her aunts and grandmothers. Later it was a way to set them apart from other religions.

So unless you're sporting a very chic and expensive scarf for a night on the town, there is no real need for one - unless, of course, you prefer to be dominated by your tather, husband, brothers and uncles.

Actually, you are no different from a domineering man - you, too, are trying to tell her how to dress.

Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
What's with the arrogance?

It's much more arrogant to tell a woman her faith is a cop-out and she has no good reasons to do what she does.

Anonymous wrote:
Are you telling us that they are no arguments that will make sense to Western people because they are Western before they are people? In other words there is no commonality among people in rational thought? There are a number of great Islamic thinkers I hear spinning in their graves right now. And no, they would not have accepted that Muslims think nonlinearly while Westerners think linearly.

There are no arguments that make sense to people committed to not understanding. Oh, here's one: live and let live.

Anonymous wrote:
Again, do you have a reason for the hijab that does not reduce Islam to a mere dress and conduct code for women? That is not a religion. I for one happen to think that Islam is among the greatest religions and am chagrined that and others like you maintain it is all about--only about--what women wear and have reduced it to a state where not one iota of spirituality remains, just this rule and that rule and any rule that any half-crazed preacher can issue a fatwa on and disseminate through the internet.

Who said Islam is only about what women wear? Who said there is nothing in Islam except the hijab?

Actually, here's a better exercise for you. Imagine you are at a party where a hijabi woman happens to be. You ask her why she wears it and she tells you. You are not satisfied with the answer, whatever it is. Are you going to keep pressing her, stubbornly, boorishly, like you are doing here? Are you going to tell her to her face her reasons aren't good enough and she must provide you with a better one? Are you actually capable of behaving this way in real life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So you are an atheist who decided to play devil's advocate by arguing for the hijab by using arguments like hair has sexual power and non-hijab wearers wear booty shorts and have higher rates of promiscuity and STDs?

Way to go. How fast can one say Islamaphobe to someone who makes Muslims and their reasons for wearing a hijab look ridiculous?

That wasn't me. I'm just an atheist who is content with people's reasons why they wear what they wear, however these reasons seem to me. I am not obsessed with interrogating people until they say something I find acceptable (which I have committed not to do).

[Anonymous]

Why is that when Islamic fundamentalists come to power the first thing they do is require women to cover up and lower the age of female marriage? Why are they not talking about zikat and the duty to help the poor instead? That is a pillar of Islam, while hijab is not. And yet somehow it has been elevated to the sixth pillar of Islam by Islamists who have come to political power despite the hijab having no Quranic basis.

This, my dear, is why I so dislike the hijab. It is, as the title of this thread says, an element of political Islam, even the symbol of this political Islam, which has wreaked such chaos and death and despair all over the Middle East.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What's with the arrogance?

It's much more arrogant to tell a woman her faith is a cop-out and she has no good reasons to do what she does.

Anonymous wrote:
Are you telling us that they are no arguments that will make sense to Western people because they are Western before they are people? In other words there is no commonality among people in rational thought? There are a number of great Islamic thinkers I hear spinning in their graves right now. And no, they would not have accepted that Muslims think nonlinearly while Westerners think linearly.

There are no arguments that make sense to people committed to not understanding. Oh, here's one: live and let live.

Anonymous wrote:
Again, do you have a reason for the hijab that does not reduce Islam to a mere dress and conduct code for women? That is not a religion. I for one happen to think that Islam is among the greatest religions and am chagrined that and others like you maintain it is all about--only about--what women wear and have reduced it to a state where not one iota of spirituality remains, just this rule and that rule and any rule that any half-crazed preacher can issue a fatwa on and disseminate through the internet.

Who said Islam is only about what women wear? Who said there is nothing in Islam except the hijab?

Actually, here's a better exercise for you. Imagine you are at a party where a hijabi woman happens to be. You ask her why she wears it and she tells you. You are not satisfied with the answer, whatever it is. Are you going to keep pressing her, stubbornly, boorishly, like you are doing here? Are you going to tell her to her face her reasons aren't good enough and she must provide you with a better one? Are you actually capable of behaving this way in real life?

We are not "pressing" anyone, boorishly or not. This is a thread on an anonymous forum, no one is forced to sit here and read it. You are the one wildly calling names, making weird and uncalled for accusations, and generally lowering the tone of the dialogue.

And don't you see the weird irony of some random atheist going on and on for pages trying to "save" poor Muslim ladies from criticism and having their feelings hurt by a bunch of boorish internet posters by explaining their beliefs. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

I have, I just never thought they were attractive. But hey, you like that, more power to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What's with the arrogance?

It's much more arrogant to tell a woman her faith is a cop-out and she has no good reasons to do what she does.

Anonymous wrote:
Are you telling us that they are no arguments that will make sense to Western people because they are Western before they are people? In other words there is no commonality among people in rational thought? There are a number of great Islamic thinkers I hear spinning in their graves right now. And no, they would not have accepted that Muslims think nonlinearly while Westerners think linearly.

There are no arguments that make sense to people committed to not understanding. Oh, here's one: live and let live.

Anonymous wrote:
Again, do you have a reason for the hijab that does not reduce Islam to a mere dress and conduct code for women? That is not a religion. I for one happen to think that Islam is among the greatest religions and am chagrined that and others like you maintain it is all about--only about--what women wear and have reduced it to a state where not one iota of spirituality remains, just this rule and that rule and any rule that any half-crazed preacher can issue a fatwa on and disseminate through the internet.

Who said Islam is only about what women wear? Who said there is nothing in Islam except the hijab?

Actually, here's a better exercise for you. Imagine you are at a party where a hijabi woman happens to be. You ask her why she wears it and she tells you. You are not satisfied with the answer, whatever it is. Are you going to keep pressing her, stubbornly, boorishly, like you are doing here? Are you going to tell her to her face her reasons aren't good enough and she must provide you with a better one? Are you actually capable of behaving this way in real life?

We are not "pressing" anyone, boorishly or not. This is a thread on an anonymous forum, no one is forced to sit here and read it. You are the one wildly calling names, making weird and uncalled for accusations, and generally lowering the tone of the dialogue.

And don't you see the weird irony of some random atheist going on and on for pages trying to "save" poor Muslim ladies from criticism and having their feelings hurt by a bunch of boorish internet posters by explaining their beliefs. Sheesh.

Uh-huh. Me calling you boorish is lowering the tone of the dialogue. But you calling hijabi women brainwashed, gullible, ignorant of their religion, illiterate, dominated by their fathers and god knows what else is...I dunno...height of civility?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What's with the arrogance?

It's much more arrogant to tell a woman her faith is a cop-out and she has no good reasons to do what she does.

Anonymous wrote:
Are you telling us that they are no arguments that will make sense to Western people because they are Western before they are people? In other words there is no commonality among people in rational thought? There are a number of great Islamic thinkers I hear spinning in their graves right now. And no, they would not have accepted that Muslims think nonlinearly while Westerners think linearly.

There are no arguments that make sense to people committed to not understanding. Oh, here's one: live and let live.

Anonymous wrote:
Again, do you have a reason for the hijab that does not reduce Islam to a mere dress and conduct code for women? That is not a religion. I for one happen to think that Islam is among the greatest religions and am chagrined that and others like you maintain it is all about--only about--what women wear and have reduced it to a state where not one iota of spirituality remains, just this rule and that rule and any rule that any half-crazed preacher can issue a fatwa on and disseminate through the internet.

Who said Islam is only about what women wear? Who said there is nothing in Islam except the hijab?

Actually, here's a better exercise for you. Imagine you are at a party where a hijabi woman happens to be. You ask her why she wears it and she tells you. You are not satisfied with the answer, whatever it is. Are you going to keep pressing her, stubbornly, boorishly, like you are doing here? Are you going to tell her to her face her reasons aren't good enough and she must provide you with a better one? Are you actually capable of behaving this way in real life?

We are not "pressing" anyone, boorishly or not. This is a thread on an anonymous forum, no one is forced to sit here and read it. You are the one wildly calling names, making weird and uncalled for accusations, and generally lowering the tone of the dialogue.

And don't you see the weird irony of some random atheist going on and on for pages trying to "save" poor Muslim ladies from criticism and having their feelings hurt by a bunch of boorish internet posters by explaining their beliefs. Sheesh.

You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

I have, I just never thought they were attractive. But hey, you like that, more power to you.

You think that's an answer, seriously? No, I'm not a fan of man buns.

But hey, you just conceded that man buns exist in decent numbers. Do the question is not idle, ridiculous, smacking of sophistry, and whatever else you called it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

I would add that very, very few posts on this thread were "Western women wear booty shorts and get STDs" and "Muslim women are subjugated and brainwashed!" type.

Those stupid posts are there but for the most part it is a pretty interesting, respectful discussion. Not sure why you are working overtime to derail it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is that when Islamic fundamentalists come to power the first thing they do is require women to cover up and lower the age of female marriage? Why are they not talking about zikat and the duty to help the poor instead? That is a pillar of Islam, while hijab is not. And yet somehow it has been elevated to the sixth pillar of Islam by Islamists who have come to political power despite the hijab having no Quranic basis.

This, my dear, is why I so dislike the hijab. It is, as the title of this thread says, an element of political Islam, even the symbol of this political Islam, which has wreaked such chaos and death and despair all over the Middle East.

Not only that but polygamy too.

Oh, excuse me, polygyny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

Different PP here. Who cares? I doubt very much anybody here would say these things to somebody's face.

But pay attention closely here: right now we're anonymous on the Internet. Moreover, the original gripe, as written by several posters way back at the beginning of this thread, concerned what we *think* of women in hijab. Nobody but you is saying we'd would go up to veiled woman and say these things to her face. However, the Internet is a fabulous resource for talking anonymously about issues like this, don't you think?

I'm with PP about the "weird irony" of you, an atheist, trying to "save poor Muslim ladies." What exactly are your qualifications for speaking on their behalf? Because I have to say, you're not doing a great job here, just parroting the stuff about hair as a sexual weapon leading to STDs and then getting up in everybody's nose when we don't find you persuasive. You're not doing Muslim womenhood any favors.