Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

No one in this discussion did anything to change anyone's mind. No one will leave this discussion with an opinion different from the one they had when they entered it. Everyone's opinion was already case in stone. That mind control talk is BS.

Well, parts of this discussion have been useful to me, and I have enjoyed hearing the perspectives of Muslim women who choose to cover and ones who choose not to, as well as their experiences in other countries and in this one. There has also been a lot of arguing, but that's normal for DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At least in America, its a choice. Can't speak for other countries, some are mixed with cultural expectation.

Wearing headscarf shouldn't be forced, but only with willingness of the wearer because its not a show of piousness, just understanding of the teaching of Quran and Hadis (collection of stories about Prophet Muhammad's puh way of life).

Whatever. My friend converted to islam to marry her very "Americanized" muslim husband. I've known her for over 20 years. She said she would never wear a scarf. Now she wears it because her husband has issues when other men look at her (she is gorgeous). He has become more and more religious. She hates it, but doesn't want trouble at home. I think it is crazy, but she feels stuck because of the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least in America, its a choice. Can't speak for other countries, some are mixed with cultural expectation.

Wearing headscarf shouldn't be forced, but only with willingness of the wearer because its not a show of piousness, just understanding of the teaching of Quran and Hadis (collection of stories about Prophet Muhammad's puh way of life).

Whatever. My friend converted to islam to marry her very "Americanized" muslim husband. I've known her for over 20 years. She said she would never wear a scarf. Now she wears it because her husband has issues when other men look at her (she is gorgeous). He has become more and more religious. She hates it, but doesn't want trouble at home. I think it is crazy, but she feels stuck because of the kids.

She is doing her children no favors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

That's the point. You wouldn't. Because you either don't have the guts, or know your reasons are nothing but fear dressed as desire to enlighten.

Good grief. You missed the point entirely. Your line of thinking is truly bizarre. Just because I think something doesn't mean I should say it to your face, and if not I'm a coward. Really? I can think your dress is ugly but I wouldn't say that to your face. You are strange.

You just want to argue. That's the only possible explanation for your twisted thinking here.

[Anonymous]

Breaking news for Moslems

Saudi Arabia’s grand mufti has ruled that chess is forbidden in Islam, saying it encourages gambling and is a waste of time.

Sheikh Abdulaziz al-Sheikh was answering a question on a television show in which he issues fatwas in response to viewers’ queries on everyday religious matters.

Ok you can continue to cover modestly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

Starbucks barista in a man-bun is every man. Learn something new on DCUM every day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

That's the point. You wouldn't. Because you either don't have the guts, or know your reasons are nothing but fear dressed as desire to enlighten.

Good grief. You missed the point entirely. Your line of thinking is truly bizarre. Just because I think something doesn't mean I should say it to your face, and if not I'm a coward. Really? I can think your dress is ugly but I wouldn't say that to your face. You are strange.

You just want to argue. That's the only possible explanation for your twisted thinking here.

That's what I said too. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Lot of bored folks on DCUM.

I agree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

I would add that very, very few posts on this thread were "Western women wear booty shorts and get STDs" and "Muslim women are subjugated and brainwashed!" type.

Those stupid posts are there but for the most part it is a pretty interesting, respectful discussion. Not sure why you are working overtime to derail it.

There's actually quite a few posts of "hijabis are subjugated, brainwashed, gullible and oppressed", and in case you missed it, there's no discussion, just a bunch of ladies sitting around congratulating themselves. Discussions happen when differing points of views are exchanged.

Actually, way back on page 21 there was a list that got up to 15 reasons why a Muslim woman might wear a hijab. Additional reasons were actively solicited, but this is where it stood:

Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)
13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)
14. They look cute with those skinny jeans and skin-tight long-sleeved blouse, accessorizing nicely with the eye makeup and lipstick colors.
15. Hijab means never having a bad hair day.

Some of these go into the brainwashed, gullible, oppressed bin, but reasons 8 through 15 (acknowledging the last three are a bit tongue in cheek) do not.

It would be nice if these reasons could be expanded on or added to, but all we are getting is drivel about hair being sexual, Islam not having a linear idea of equality, and Western booty women having STDs (even though the rate of chlamydia in Iranian women is 20 to 35 times the rate in US women).

As stated above, reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent of the cases of hijab wearing. Number 3--the religion requires it--has been conceded by just about everyone on this thread to be erroneous. Also, just about everyone has agreed that the grandmothers of today's hijab wearers (outside the Arabian peninsula) way more likely than not did not wear a hijab.

So, we are left asking, if Islam does not require it and the hijab culturally has not been worn for generations why are told so adamantly today that the hijab is the proper dress for Muslim women? You, dear PP, have tried to shut off this conversation at every turn even though this is an eminently reasonable question.

Good grief, PP, go spend some time with your husband or kids. To write this much in one sitting you must have way too much time on your hands. Don't you have a job? No spouse? No kids? No friends? Can't you spend your time volunteering for the Salvation Army or Habitat for Humanity then?

I am the Muslim PP you are probably referring to. I have explained time and again my own reasons and many Muslim women's reasons for preferring to wear hijab. All I can say is reread this entire thread with a pen and paper and jot down the reason, because each time you finish reading my reason it appears to have escaped your brain again. At least if you write it down on paper, you can look at it to remember.

The conversation is closed with this: even if you find factual proof that women have never worn hijab for religious reasons, many Muslim women would still prefer to wear it today for modesty reasons. It makes them FEEL more modest.

Digest that thought. Now please do yourself a favor and get a life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

I would add that very, very few posts on this thread were "Western women wear booty shorts and get STDs" and "Muslim women are subjugated and brainwashed!" type.

Those stupid posts are there but for the most part it is a pretty interesting, respectful discussion. Not sure why you are working overtime to derail it.

There's actually quite a few posts of "hijabis are subjugated, brainwashed, gullible and oppressed", and in case you missed it, there's no discussion, just a bunch of ladies sitting around congratulating themselves. Discussions happen when differing points of views are exchanged.

Actually, way back on page 21 there was a list that got up to 15 reasons why a Muslim woman might wear a hijab. Additional reasons were actively solicited, but this is where it stood:

Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)
13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)
14. They look cute with those skinny jeans and skin-tight long-sleeved blouse, accessorizing nicely with the eye makeup and lipstick colors.
15. Hijab means never having a bad hair day.

Some of these go into the brainwashed, gullible, oppressed bin, but reasons 8 through 15 (acknowledging the last three are a bit tongue in cheek) do not.

It would be nice if these reasons could be expanded on or added to, but all we are getting is drivel about hair being sexual, Islam not having a linear idea of equality, and Western booty women having STDs (even though the rate of chlamydia in Iranian women is 20 to 35 times the rate in US women).

As stated above, reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent of the cases of hijab wearing. Number 3--the religion requires it--has been conceded by just about everyone on this thread to be erroneous. Also, just about everyone has agreed that the grandmothers of today's hijab wearers (outside the Arabian peninsula) way more likely than not did not wear a hijab.

So, we are left asking, if Islam does not require it and the hijab culturally has not been worn for generations why are told so adamantly today that the hijab is the proper dress for Muslim women? You, dear PP, have tried to shut off this conversation at every turn even though this is an eminently reasonable question.

Good grief, PP, go spend some time with your husband or kids. To write this much in one sitting you must have way too much time on your hands. Don't you have a job? No spouse? No kids? No friends? Can't you spend your time volunteering for the Salvation Army or Habitat for Humanity then?

I am the Muslim PP you are probably referring to. I have explained time and again my own reasons and many Muslim women's reasons for preferring to wear hijab. All I can say is reread this entire thread with a pen and paper and jot down the reason, because each time you finish reading my reason it appears to have escaped your brain again. At least if you write it down on paper, you can look at it to remember.

The conversation is closed with this: even if you find factual proof that women have never worn hijab for religious reasons, many Muslim women would still prefer to wear it today for modesty reasons. It makes them FEEL more modest.

Digest that thought. Now please do yourself a favor and get a life.

I'm glad PP took the time to summarize the points discussed on this thread. Reading through them makes me realize that not one point is valid.

Modesty - or this need to appear modest - again places the onus on the woman, and that's really the heart of this discussion. dictionary definition of modesty -the quality of behaving and especially dressing in ways that do not attract sexual attention

We place the blame on women for showing too much "body" and thus, attracting sexual attention. That's not modesty; that's imprisonment and brainwashing. Furthermore, this belief also empowers men. "I can rape her b/c she was showing too much skin. She was asking for it."

It's no different from the mentality of any rapist, which is to use any excuse to overpower women. Islam fails to enlighten men. Is that how you want to raise your sons? to pass judgment on young women who show too much hair? to blame them for being too sexually attractive? to empower them to harass or worse yet, harm women?

There's a sick theme that runs throughout Islam and to be fair, throughout many religions - that sex is dirty, that women are either Madonnas or whores.

Until we have PPs (like the one above) who continue to point out these silly and dangerous beliefs, we won't move forward AS WOMEN.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Good grief, PP, go spend some time with your husband or kids. To write this much in one sitting you must have way too much time on your hands. Don't you have a job? No spouse? No kids? No friends? Can't you spend your time volunteering for the Salvation Army or Habitat for Humanity then?

I am the Muslim PP you are probably referring to. I have explained time and again my own reasons and many Muslim women's reasons for preferring to wear hijab. All I can say is reread this entire thread with a pen and paper and jot down the reason, because each time you finish reading my reason it appears to have escaped your brain again. At least if you write it down on paper, you can look at it to remember.

The conversation is closed with this: even if you find factual proof that women have never worn hijab for religious reasons, many Muslim women would still prefer to wear it today for modesty reasons. It makes them FEEL more modest.

Digest that thought. Now please do yourself a favor and get a life.

We all know that hijab makes women FEEL more modest. What a lot of people have pointed out is that a society/culture/religion that TEACHES women that they need to "feel more modest" by covering every inch of her body is totally screwed up. We've also seen plenty of women covering their hair who are not exactly modest in any normal sense of the word. Tons of makeup, skinny jeans, fancy cars, fancy purse. And on top of THAT very few Muslim men seem to comply with any comparable clothing standard. I, at least, have seen women in full black abayas while their husbands are in shorts beside them in the summer. Further, many women wearing hijab and loose clothing appear to be limited from a lot of physical activity, like running, swimming, etc. The hijab seems to make women less visible and less able to move around physically- what does that suggest? Compare this with something like the Amish, who do not cover every inch of their body but both the men AND women are held to a modest clothing standard that is both comprehensive (covering their bodies AND not wearing flashy clothes) and makes more sense in context of their religious beliefs. And there are even more questions- were the generations of Muslim women who actively rejected hair covering "bad" Muslims or worse at following their faith? Why does hijab seem more important than other tenets of Islam such as giving to the poor? Why are women in so many Muslim countries heckled and sexually harassed in public NOW when that was not the case previously? Is hijab even mandated or suggested by the Koran?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

Starbucks barista in a man-bun is every man. Learn something new on DCUM every day.

Whoever said that? The point is that there are enough of them in and around Starbucks and Adams Morgan and wherever that we all understand the meme. If it's an easily-recognized meme, then there's at least some number of them.

So why do insist on avoiding the question: if long hair is sexual weapon and *some* men have long hair, what should be done about this? Should these men veil?

[Anonymous]

May God forgive me for bumping this thread, but there was a really great article in the New Yorker that is perfect for this thread, and a really, really good read:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/08/cover-story-personal-history-elif-batuman

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm glad PP took the time to summarize the points discussed on this thread. Reading through them makes me realize that not one point is valid.

Modesty - or this need to appear modest - again places the onus on the woman, and that's really the heart of this discussion. dictionary definition of modesty -the quality of behaving and especially dressing in ways that do not attract sexual attention

We place the blame on women for showing too much "body" and thus, attracting sexual attention. That's not modesty; that's imprisonment and brainwashing. Furthermore, this belief also empowers men. "I can rape her b/c she was showing too much skin. She was asking for it."

It's no different from the mentality of any rapist, which is to use any excuse to overpower women. Islam fails to enlighten men. Is that how you want to raise your sons? to pass judgment on young women who show too much hair? to blame them for being too sexually attractive? to empower them to harass or worse yet, harm women?

There's a sick theme that runs throughout Islam and to be fair, throughout many religions - that sex is dirty, that women are either Madonnas or whores.

Until we have PPs (like the one above) who continue to point out these silly and dangerous beliefs, we won't move forward AS WOMEN.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

Islam doesn't view sex as dirty. Islam embraces sex in marriage, and considers extramarital sex a sin for both men and women. In that, it is not that different from other religions - don't know of any that approves of extramarital sex.

You really are too glued to your own soapbox. God only knows how you took a simple statement of "it makes women feel more modest and that makes them feel good" and rolled into into the crazy ball of rape, passing judgment, unenlightened men, brainwashing, empowerment and who knows what else.

You are incredibly stupid and arrogant to say that unless all women believe like you do, we won't move forward as women. No, AS WOMEN. I got news for you: just because you and other women share the same form of genitals, it doesn't make you similar or the same or wanting the same things or belonging to the same club. Even though it kills you, other women have other ideas of what "moving forward" is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm glad PP took the time to summarize the points discussed on this thread. Reading through them makes me realize that not one point is valid.

Modesty - or this need to appear modest - again places the onus on the woman, and that's really the heart of this discussion. dictionary definition of modesty -the quality of behaving and especially dressing in ways that do not attract sexual attention

We place the blame on women for showing too much "body" and thus, attracting sexual attention. That's not modesty; that's imprisonment and brainwashing. Furthermore, this belief also empowers men. "I can rape her b/c she was showing too much skin. She was asking for it."

It's no different from the mentality of any rapist, which is to use any excuse to overpower women. Islam fails to enlighten men. Is that how you want to raise your sons? to pass judgment on young women who show too much hair? to blame them for being too sexually attractive? to empower them to harass or worse yet, harm women?

There's a sick theme that runs throughout Islam and to be fair, throughout many religions - that sex is dirty, that women are either Madonnas or whores.

Until we have PPs (like the one above) who continue to point out these silly and dangerous beliefs, we won't move forward AS WOMEN.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

Islam doesn't view sex as dirty. Islam embraces sex in marriage, and considers extramarital sex a sin for both men and women. In that, it is not that different from other religions - don't know of any that approves of extramarital sex.

You really are too glued to your own soapbox. God only knows how you took a simple statement of "it makes women feel more modest and that makes them feel good" and rolled into into the crazy ball of rape, passing judgment, unenlightened men, brainwashing, empowerment and who knows what else.

You are incredibly stupid and arrogant to say that unless all women believe like you do, we won't move forward as women. No, AS WOMEN. I got news for you: just because you and other women share the same form of genitals, it doesn't make you similar or the same or wanting the same things or belonging to the same club. Even though it kills you, other women have other ideas of what "moving forward" is.

New PP here. You misunderstood her. Her main point is that the veil puts the "onus" on the woman for preventing extra-marital sex (hijab), and the "blame" on the woman when there is extra-marital sex. "Onus" and "blame" are both words she uses. She is unhappy that the larger part of the onus and blame should go to the woman, and isn't shared by the man who doesn't have to cover his sexy hair but just has to keep his eyes down. She really only mentioned in passing the fact that Islam and other religions think extra-marital sex is wrong, that it's the source for this unequal placing of onus and blame. But it's the onus and blame both being placed on the woman that she's concerned about, because men don't learn responsibility for themselves.

[Anonymous]

The veil doesn't do anything of the sort. If that's what you read into it, that's on you. There is no scriptural justification to put a larger share of "blame" and "onus" on the woman. What do you mean, "men don't learn responsibility for themselves"? What does this have to do with religion? Men, like women, have an obligation to be modest and abstain from extramarital sex in Islam. There is no discount for men; and there is no scriptural basis for the belief that women are more responsible for modesty and abstinence than men.

You also have a misguided understanding of modesty. The opposite of modesty isn't sexiness. The opposite of modesty is vanity.