Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

I would add that very, very few posts on this thread were "Western women wear booty shorts and get STDs" and "Muslim women are subjugated and brainwashed!" type.

Those stupid posts are there but for the most part it is a pretty interesting, respectful discussion. Not sure why you are working overtime to derail it.

There's actually quite a few posts of "hijabis are subjugated, brainwashed, gullible and oppressed", and in case you missed it, there's no discussion, just a bunch of ladies sitting around congratulating themselves. Discussions happen when differing points of views are exchanged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

I have, I just never thought they were attractive. But hey, you like that, more power to you.

You think that's an answer, seriously? No, I'm not a fan of man buns.

But hey, you just conceded that man buns exist in decent numbers. Do the question is not idle, ridiculous, smacking of sophistry, and whatever else you called it.

I never said that they didn't, just that bringing them into the hijab discussion is a ridiculous act of sophistry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

Different PP here. Who cares? I doubt very much anybody here would say these things to somebody's face.

But pay attention closely here: right now we're anonymous on the Internet. Moreover, the original gripe, as written by several posters way back at the beginning of this thread, concerned what we *think* of women in hijab. Nobody but you is saying we'd would go up to veiled woman and say these things to her face. However, the Internet is a fabulous resource for talking anonymously about issues like this, don't you think?

I'm with PP about the "weird irony" of you, an atheist, trying to "save poor Muslim ladies." What exactly are your qualifications for speaking on their behalf? Because I have to say, you're not doing a great job here, just parroting the stuff about hair as a sexual weapon leading to STDs and then getting up in everybody's nose when we don't find you persuasive. You're not doing Muslim womenhood any favors.

I never said anything about STDs and I couldn't care less about persuading you lot. I think Muslim women ought to be able to have their reasons for covering without having to pass your purity test for these reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

Different PP here. Who cares? I doubt very much anybody here would say these things to somebody's face.

But pay attention closely here: right now we're anonymous on the Internet. Moreover, the original gripe, as written by several posters way back at the beginning of this thread, concerned what we *think* of women in hijab. Nobody but you is saying we'd would go up to veiled woman and say these things to her face. However, the Internet is a fabulous resource for talking anonymously about issues like this, don't you think?

I'm with PP about the "weird irony" of you, an atheist, trying to "save poor Muslim ladies." What exactly are your qualifications for speaking on their behalf? Because I have to say, you're not doing a great job here, just parroting the stuff about hair as a sexual weapon leading to STDs and then getting up in everybody's nose when we don't find you persuasive. You're not doing Muslim womenhood any favors.

I never said anything about STDs and I couldn't care less about persuading you lot. I think Muslim women ought to be able to have their reasons for covering without having to pass your purity test for these reasons.

Sure. And other Muslim women are free to not like the growing trend of societally mandated hijab. And the rest of us are free to have an opinion on it.

[Anonymous]

I am perplexed that there are women out there who do not think that men's hair is part of their sexual attractiveness to women. Are you all in some alternative universe where bald guys are all hot? Because I have not noticed that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

Hi, we're talking about an article that describes hijabs as a symbol of political expression. Women can wear tshirts with swastikas on them or some other symbol and that's their right but that doesn't mean I should think it's ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You never answered - would you talk to a covered woman like this in real life? For real? Will you tell her to her face she's brainwashed, subjugated and gullible? Or are you just a keyboard warrior?

I never wrote those things... gosh, you really need to get a grip.

I would add that very, very few posts on this thread were "Western women wear booty shorts and get STDs" and "Muslim women are subjugated and brainwashed!" type.

Those stupid posts are there but for the most part it is a pretty interesting, respectful discussion. Not sure why you are working overtime to derail it.

There's actually quite a few posts of "hijabis are subjugated, brainwashed, gullible and oppressed", and in case you missed it, there's no discussion, just a bunch of ladies sitting around congratulating themselves. Discussions happen when differing points of views are exchanged.

Actually, way back on page 21 there was a list that got up to 15 reasons why a Muslim woman might wear a hijab. Additional reasons were actively solicited, but this is where it stood:

Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)
13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)
14. They look cute with those skinny jeans and skin-tight long-sleeved blouse, accessorizing nicely with the eye makeup and lipstick colors.
15. Hijab means never having a bad hair day.

Some of these go into the brainwashed, gullible, oppressed bin, but reasons 8 through 15 (acknowledging the last three are a bit tongue in cheek) do not.

It would be nice if these reasons could be expanded on or added to, but all we are getting is drivel about hair being sexual, Islam not having a linear idea of equality, and Western booty women having STDs (even though the rate of chlamydia in Iranian women is 20 to 35 times the rate in US women).

As stated above, reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent of the cases of hijab wearing. Number 3--the religion requires it--has been conceded by just about everyone on this thread to be erroneous. Also, just about everyone has agreed that the grandmothers of today's hijab wearers (outside the Arabian peninsula) way more likely than not did not wear a hijab.

So, we are left asking, if Islam does not require it and the hijab culturally has not been worn for generations why are told so adamantly today that the hijab is the proper dress for Muslim women? You, dear PP, have tried to shut off this conversation at every turn even though this is an eminently reasonable question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not the atheist PP, but there are no "follow up" questions that merit further discussion. Arguments such as men wear their hair long, men beautify their hair too ventures into the stupid territory. Sorry, but it just does. And I'm not going to entertain such ridiculous arguments.

Actually these are pretty good questions. Walk into any high school or office or watch men on the Metro tomorrow morning, and ask yourself whether the men there care about their hair enough to style it. Of course they do. You just don't want to contemplate this possibility, and that's why you call the questions ridiculous.

They actually ARE ridiculous and are nothing but an exercise in sophistry.

You've actually never had a Starbucks barista in s man-bun? Where do you live?

You're like an ostrich with her head in the sand. "Nyah nyah, I can't see you!"

I have, I just never thought they were attractive. But hey, you like that, more power to you.

You think that's an answer, seriously? No, I'm not a fan of man buns.

But hey, you just conceded that man buns exist in decent numbers. Do the question is not idle, ridiculous, smacking of sophistry, and whatever else you called it.

I never said that they didn't, just that bringing them into the hijab discussion is a ridiculous act of sophistry.

Pretty sure the ancient Greeks would snort at your repeated misuse of the word "sophistry." If a point is actually germane to the argument, instead of just distracting wordplay, then it's not sophistry.

I'm with the poster who's baffled that you can't see that men really do care about their relative hotness in baldness, mullets, man buns, regular cuts, and so on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said that they didn't, just that bringing them into the hijab discussion is a ridiculous act of sophistry.

Pretty sure the ancient Greeks would snort at your repeated misuse of the word "sophistry." If a point is actually germane to the argument, instead of just distracting wordplay, then it's not sophistry.

I'm with the poster who's baffled that you can't see that men really do care about their relative hotness in baldness, mullets, man buns, regular cuts, and so on.

P.S. Calling a germane point "sophistry", because you're worried about having to argue that point, is called an "ad hominem." You're welcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Actually, way back on page 21 there was a list that got up to 15 reasons why a Muslim woman might wear a hijab. Additional reasons were actively solicited, but this is where it stood:

Reasons Muslim women wear the hijab

1. It is required by law
2. Their families or husbands force them to
3. They (erroneously) think their religion requires them to
4. Peer pressure from their friends
5. Protection from harassment in the street (Muslim majority countries only)
6. Desire to show they are pure
7. Increase marriage prospects with men who want pure women and take the hijab as a sign of that
8. To wear a symbol that proclaims Islamic pride
9. To wear a symbol against Western neo-colonialism
10. As a show of Islamic feminism that believes the hijab is a rejection of the objectification of women
11. A mortification practice that they believe brings them closer to God.

Reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent, likely more, of the cases and are the reasons why most of the posters on this thread dislike the hijab. Reasons 8 through 10 are tiresome, but okay. Only 11 would be legitimately religious but even then one would have to say why this particular practice? Why not fast one day a week as a non-hijabi Muslim woman I know does? How about engaging in good works? Giving extra zakat?

Have I left out any other reasons?

12. Because as a woman you can't enter a mosque without one (only explains a part of Fridays)
13. It's easier to get away with doing things you are not supposed to because your parents suspect you less (teenagers only)
14. They look cute with those skinny jeans and skin-tight long-sleeved blouse, accessorizing nicely with the eye makeup and lipstick colors.
15. Hijab means never having a bad hair day.

Some of these go into the brainwashed, gullible, oppressed bin, but reasons 8 through 15 (acknowledging the last three are a bit tongue in cheek) do not.

It would be nice if these reasons could be expanded on or added to, but all we are getting is drivel about hair being sexual, Islam not having a linear idea of equality, and Western booty women having STDs (even though the rate of chlamydia in Iranian women is 20 to 35 times the rate in US women).

As stated above, reasons 1 through 7 probably cover 90 percent of the cases of hijab wearing. Number 3--the religion requires it--has been conceded by just about everyone on this thread to be erroneous. Also, just about everyone has agreed that the grandmothers of today's hijab wearers (outside the Arabian peninsula) way more likely than not did not wear a hijab.

So, we are left asking, if Islam does not require it and the hijab culturally has not been worn for generations why are told so adamantly today that the hijab is the proper dress for Muslim women? You, dear PP, have tried to shut off this conversation at every turn even though this is an eminently reasonable question.

Why would anyone want to engage in this discussion when your list of reasons is so infinitely prejudiced? You think you already know all there is to be known about the reasons women cover, down to percentages attributable to each reason. You know it all. Why talk?

It also needs to be pointed out that just about everyone who isn't Muslim thought the hijab was not religiously mandated.

You remind me of the old conquistador paintings telling natives how they ought to believe, 'cause the white man knows better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

That's the point. You wouldn't. Because you either don't have the guts, or know your reasons are nothing but fear dressed as desire to enlighten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Are you seriously hoping to win an argument with a Muslim woman and have her accept that she shouldn't be covering? I don't see that happening. Just fyi. But go ahead. The soapbox is never empty.

Back up. Your original complaint was that we look at a woman on hijab and *secretly, mentally* criticize her. You didn't like that some do that. So we asked you for some reasons why we should think it's OK. Your reasons weren't satsfying to many here. So now you're trying to shift the blame for this whole conversation.

You should think it's OK because that's what she wants to do. Do you ask anyone else about reasons you should think their clothing choices are OK?

You can't ever tell us what to think. You're right that we shouldn't tell a woman to her face--but absolutely nobody, but nobody, here has said they would say negative things to a hijabi's face. This whole discussion has been about what we *think* and tiring to change our *minds*. We're not into mind control (yet).

Get a grip.

No one in this discussion did anything to change anyone's mind. No one will leave this discussion with an opinion different from the one they had when they entered it. Everyone's opinion was already case in stone. That mind control talk is BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I never said that they didn't, just that bringing them into the hijab discussion is a ridiculous act of sophistry.

Pretty sure the ancient Greeks would snort at your repeated misuse of the word "sophistry." If a point is actually germane to the argument, instead of just distracting wordplay, then it's not sophistry.

I'm with the poster who's baffled that you can't see that men really do care about their relative hotness in baldness, mullets, man buns, regular cuts, and so on.

P.S. Calling a germane point "sophistry", because you're worried about having to argue that point, is called an "ad hominem." You're welcome.

It's not germane in any way. Sophistry is correct.