Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We need involuntary institutionalization & Singapore-style law enforcement stat

Not in my community we don’t. Go turn Oklahoma into your fascist dream land and leave us freedom loving DC natives alone.

[Anonymous]

I am not excusing Neely's behavior, but I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to 1) get someone into psychiatric and/or substance use treatment 2) keep them there for the required amount of time, and 3) have them take their medication regularly when they get out. It's almost impossible. I know this because close family friends have gone through hell to help their adult bipolar/substance-using son. This is a white, UMD family with loving, caring parents and good health insurance. After years of the son cycling through rehab programs, the parents worked with local authorities to make him a ward of the state in order to avail of treatment after their insurance would no longer cover it. He cycles between jail, the psych ward, and state-supported treatment programs with no end in sight and no hope of improving. Sometimes he is homeless; sometimes he stays in state-funded housing for recovering alcoholics/addicts. No one can force him to take his medication when he is not in jail or not in a treatment facility. Imagine how much worse it is for mentally ill/substance users with weak family ties and few or no financial resources. Again, not an excuse but just trying to provide some context on how very difficult the challenge is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not excusing Neely's behavior, but I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to 1) get someone into psychiatric and/or substance use treatment 2) keep them there for the required amount of time, and 3) have them take their medication regularly when they get out. It's almost impossible. I know this because close family friends have gone through hell to help their adult bipolar/substance-using son. This is a white, UMD family with loving, caring parents and good health insurance. After years of the son cycling through rehab programs, the parents worked with local authorities to make him a ward of the state in order to avail of treatment after their insurance would no longer cover it. He cycles between jail, the psych ward, and state-supported treatment programs with no end in sight and no hope of improving. Sometimes he is homeless; sometimes he stays in state-funded housing for recovering alcoholics/addicts. No one can force him to take his medication when he is not in jail or not in a treatment facility. Imagine how much worse it is for mentally ill/substance users with weak family ties and few or no financial resources. Again, not an excuse but just trying to provide some context on how very difficult the challenge is.

We should have never dismantled all the mental institutions in the country. Out patient therapy is a joke unless there is complete compliance and family support. Which there usually isn’t

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need involuntary institutionalization & Singapore-style law enforcement stat

That will never happen in America where individual freedom is valued above all else.

Individual freedom is important.
Too many Americans don't have individual freedom because of the presence of mentally ill and drug-addicted on the streets.
Americans are not free to walk the streets in safety, ride the subways or buses safely to their jobs, or go shopping without the fear of being confronted or assaulted by people who are not well.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not excusing Neely's behavior, but I don't think most people realize how difficult it is to 1) get someone into psychiatric and/or substance use treatment 2) keep them there for the required amount of time, and 3) have them take their medication regularly when they get out. It's almost impossible. I know this because close family friends have gone through hell to help their adult bipolar/substance-using son. This is a white, UMD family with loving, caring parents and good health insurance. After years of the son cycling through rehab programs, the parents worked with local authorities to make him a ward of the state in order to avail of treatment after their insurance would no longer cover it. He cycles between jail, the psych ward, and state-supported treatment programs with no end in sight and no hope of improving. Sometimes he is homeless; sometimes he stays in state-funded housing for recovering alcoholics/addicts. No one can force him to take his medication when he is not in jail or not in a treatment facility. Imagine how much worse it is for mentally ill/substance users with weak family ties and few or no financial resources. Again, not an excuse but just trying to provide some context on how very difficult the challenge is.

Which is why we need humane longterm treatment facilities that can properly treat individuals with bad addiction or mental illness issues. I am a proponent of involuntary treatment. Someone deep into a fentanyl or meth addiction or with untreated schizophrenia is not capable of making rational choices. I'm an addict myself. Clean and sober now. But I wish a judge or healthcare professional had taken me away years ago for a three or six month stay so I could have been properly detoxed and given a little time for my brain to heal and develop some healthier habits and routines. The one thing you can never get back is time. Letting untreated addicts and the mentally unwell wander the streets is not "freedom." It's just perpetuating suffering and misery for everyone. For the poster above ranting about fascism and go back to Oklahoma, you know nothing. And people like you are a big part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am a New Yorker, a Dem, and I stand fully behind the marine. I am scared on a daily basis by mentally ill homeless. If the government won’t do anything to help them, this appears to be the second best outcome for everyone involved. Would you rather be punched, pushed on the tracks, raped, or your child kidnapped? Difficult situations require difficult choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am a New Yorker, a Dem, and I stand fully behind the marine. I am scared on a daily basis by mentally ill homeless. If the government won’t do anything to help them, this appears to be the second best outcome for everyone involved. Would you rather be punched, pushed on the tracks, raped, or your child kidnapped? Difficult situations require difficult choices.

Good for you. Hopefully, the people serving on the Grand Jury will view things like you do.
And, if, God forbid, he is indicted, I hope the reasonable people in NY who have had enough of the rampant crime on the streets, subways, and buses will come out in a big way.

[Anonymous]

I am already seeing a string of sob stories about the man with 42 convictions including assault and attempted kidnapping in the press. What a joke! I never had enough anger at the media, I didn’t care - just knew they all had an agenda to an extent and tried to choose the less politicized which was becoming more and more difficult since 2020 or so. But now I am finally seeing how the media is helping society to lose all common sense…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Neely was a one man crime wave with a rap sheet longer than the tale of two cities. His crimes have included multiple instances of where he punched women in the face, including elderly people. Unfortunately once someone stood up to him it led to his death. The dude should have never been on the streets in the first place, and should have been in jail or a mental institution.

Yes, but where are the humane mental institutions that will treat and medicate poor and homeless people that suffer from mental illness or addiction? The answer is they don't exist. Until we build, fund, and staff them the Neely's of the world - 42 arrests, including attempted kidnapping of a 7 year old girl and punching elderly women in the face - will continue to wander the streets and ride the subways. Everyday we ignore them. And occasionally one snaps and pushes someone in front of a subway or stabs a random person and everyone says something must be done and nothing ever is.

This generation of politicians - both democrats and republicans - suck at dealing with real world problems. They are stuck in their ideological bubbles. And in the meantime our cities get progressively worse. Compare crime and quality of life issues from 2013 to now. It's been a bad ten years. And still, nothing meaningful ever gets done. Until we have better leaders with real solutions, more and more people are going to take matters into their own hands.

DP. It’s sad there aren’t any but while the politicians figure it out he should be in jail. Or actually I don’t care where he is as long as I don’t have to encounter him

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am already seeing a string of sob stories about the man with 42 convictions including assault and attempted kidnapping in the press. What a joke! I never had enough anger at the media, I didn’t care - just knew they all had an agenda to an extent and tried to choose the less politicized which was becoming more and more difficult since 2020 or so. But now I am finally seeing how the media is helping society to lose all common sense…

Right? Neely dying a tragic death - violent or drug overdose - was a foregone conclusion. The only thing that actually would have helped is compulsory, long-term treatment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Today's NYTs has a more balanced look at both men, although the article does not include much new information about the events on the train that day.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/07/nyregion/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway.html

The reporting points out that contrary to much of what has been reported, Mr. Neely's days as a happy appearing street performer were long gone.

Mr. Neely racked up more than three dozen arrests. Many were of the sort that people living on the street often accrue while homeless, like turnstile-jumping or trespassing. But at least four were on charges of punching people, two of them in the subway system.

Outreach workers noted that Mr. Neely heavily used K2, the powerful, unpredictable synthetic marijuana. In June 2019, an outreach worker noticed that Mr. Neely had lost considerable weight and was sleeping upright. Around that time, he was reported to have banged on a booth agent’s door and threatened to kill her, according to the worker’s notes. Then he was gone.

This is consistent with what family members have said about K2 use.

In November 2021, Mr. Neely’s aggression seemed to peak, when he punched a 67-year-old woman in the street on the Lower East Side, breaking her nose, the police said. He was charged with assault and, awaiting the resolution of his case, spent 15 months in jail, the police said, though his family said the stint was shorter.

He was allowed to avoid further jail time and obtain much-needed treatment in February of this year. The victim of the assault agreed to this disposition, which required Mr. Neely to live in a treatment facility and stay clean for 15 months.

But just 13 days later, he abandoned the facility. Judge Biben issued a warrant for his arrest.

In March, an outreach worker saw him in the subway, neatly dressed, calm and subdued, and got him a ride to a shelter in the Bronx. (The outreach workers typically do not check for arrest warrants when interacting with homeless people.) But a downward spiral followed.

On April 9, when outreach workers approached him in a subway car at the end of the line in Coney Island, Mr. Neely urinated in front of them. When an outreach worker went to call the police, according to a worker’s notes, Mr. Neely shouted, “Just wait until they get here, I got something for you, just wait and see.”

Officers arrived and ejected Mr. Neely from the train, apparently unaware of the arrest warrant.

Five days after that, an outreach worker saw him in Coney Island and noted that he was aggressive and incoherent. “He could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated,” the worker wrote.

Two weeks later, he was riding an F train in SoHo for what would be the last time.

The article goes on to discuss the use of a chokehold, which is taught to new marines as a way to knock out the enemy. However, it is important not to squeeze the person's windpipe, which appears to have been the marine's fatal error.

The entire situation is a tragedy. Mr. Neely should not have died the way he did, but at the same time, outreach workers responsible for his care absolutely believed that he was a threat to himself or others, yet he remained on the street. Beyond threatening subway riders, a person in that condition is a threat to all the vulnerable unhoused or mentally ill people he encounters each day who have nowhere to retreat. To that end, this case is less about race and how we view unhoused people and the mentally ill in general than it is about what happens when a person's mental illness and behavior constitute a real threat to others. I'm not a violent person, so I wouldn't even know what to do if faced with a real danger. I'd be the first to be attacked, probably. But I hate that people are making this about general hatred for unhoused people because all evidence suggests that Mr. Neely was dangerous. There is a very real question of what to do about the minority of unhoused people like Mr. Neely, who are, in fact, violent. Ignoring that issue helps no one.

The woman he punched shouldn’t have been such a softie and should have asked for jail time for him. He didn’t harass anyone while in jail; once he was put into treatment he ran away and started his shenanigans again.
Where does compassion for people like him end?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I live in Philly. I ignore any homeless person I see and anyone who appears to be approaching me on a walking asking for directions. Too many bad experiences.

That’s what I am teaching my child to do. Don’t engage with the homeless,
Too many mentally ill and therefore unpredictable people. Don’t be mean or cruel to them but avoid and ignore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Neely was a one man crime wave with a rap sheet longer than the tale of two cities. His crimes have included multiple instances of where he punched women in the face, including elderly people. Unfortunately once someone stood up to him it led to his death. The dude should have never been on the streets in the first place, and should have been in jail or a mental institution.

+1. One served his country, the other one was a documented criminal. I feel sorry for one of them in this unfortunate case, and it is not the criminal.

But how to make sure that sob stories about Neely with pictures of him smiling don’t tug at the heartstrings of clueless people with their heads in the clouds?
I mean it’s hard not to feel sympathy when you just see the stories and know nothing about what has become of him

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in Philly. I ignore any homeless person I see and anyone who appears to be approaching me on a walking asking for directions. Too many bad experiences.

That’s what I am teaching my child to do. Don’t engage with the homeless,
Too many mentally ill and therefore unpredictable people. Don’t be mean or cruel to them but avoid and ignore.

The problem is that even people who avoid and ignore end up being victims.
Like the woman who lost an eye because of an attack.
Or, Michelle Go, who was killed by being pushed in front of a subway train in NY.