Leaving a narcissist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. Can we also list out tactics that have worked for folks staying in the marriage to best protect the kids? Like when DH is going nuts on yourselves, the kids, what are tactics that have worked to keep them at bay (as much as possible)? Or what do you coach the kids to do?

I stayed in my marriage for 7 years past when I hit the point of realizing things were really bad. I was resolved to not leave a day before my youngest hit 18. And then exDH was the one who filed for divorce. I was truly blindsided.

What I did to protect the kids:

-they naturally leaned toward really intense extracurriculars that had them out of the house a lot. I encouraged those and it was easy because exDH wanted winners. I’m glad they had a place that was safe for them to be away from his behavior at home. I think it equated to years less time with him.

-I had a sort of warning system for them to tiptoe around his moods when necessary. I’m not proud of it but it kept them safe. As they got to school age, they got good at reading his moods and hiding out in their rooms or going to find the neighbor kids

-I took in a lot of long-term houseguests. We live near a college campus and friends-of-friends always needed a place to stay before or after semesters or for summers. ExDH behaved better when he had to perform for outsiders and didn’t question guests as long as I did all of the work and the guests reflected well on him (college athletes, interesting internships, kids of well-connected friends)

-for me, I unconsciously found a lot of friends and acquaintances. They’re the ones who then stepped up with babysitter recommendations, attorney referrals, random playdates so I could go to a hearing, etc. Reach out to anyone and everyone. No one really knew what was going on with us until exDH filed. But they rallied around us and are taking care of us.

-have a pet. ExDH hates animals but they kept finding their way into our lives. I would maybe not be alive if I didn’t have my dog to walk every day and tuck into bed at night, especially when exDH has the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

NP. First off that sounds like a nightmare but know that you’re amazing for holding your cool through all this. Rooting for you and your children.

If I may ask, if it’s so bad that the pediatrician and Kindergarden teacher could be deposed, would they not have called CPS already as mandated reporters and these records could help make the case that your STBX is unfit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

I’m the one who brought up parenting evaluations. In my case, my attorney and I selected the parenting evaluator and my STBX paid for it. This is not typical. His attorney suggested evaluators know for things such as favoring the more wealthy parent, favoring men, doing haphazard reports, etc. I knew going into the divorce that I would need an attorney well-versed in this process, my focus during my initial consults before hiring someone was to choose an attorney who really knew our local landscape of evaluators and (should it go to court) how judges respond to them. STBX has other diagnosed mental illnesses that he treats haphazardly, which may influence why he agreed to pay for the evaluation- he 100% hopes it will show me in a bad light.

If you don’t have an attorney who does this every week, the advice I’m replying to is very good and you do need to proceed with extreme caution. But if you have a choice between electing to hire a parenting evaluator vs taking the chance that your narcissist spouse will push a GAL or force an evaluator to be appointed by court, then you really need to be proactive and find an attorney who knows this process.

Once you’re in a divorce with someone like this, advice about what you avoid kind of goes out the window and it becomes more about making the best of truly horrible options. I cry or yell every day (when home alone) because it’s a hellscape.

I would have stayed in my marriage if I’d had the choice because it would have been an easier way to protect my kids.

I’m an attorney and they are not a magic fix for the vagaries and uncertainty of the court system and the risk of using a forensic evaluator who doesn’t have to follow rules of evidence etc. Judges can pick and choose what parts of the reports they want to use, if at all. In many cases, the reports are sloppy and even incorrect. In cases where they are ‘beneficial’ to the parent, they are often ignored by the judge. I suspect you are a ‘high net worth’ family or at least UMC, as those are the types who get steered to these pricey evaluations. They are a money making scam. Great for the psych who gets a nice fat paycheck from clients who can’t challenge their billing. But if you look into the data, they have no proven benefit to the families who pay for them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

NP. First off that sounds like a nightmare but know that you’re amazing for holding your cool through all this. Rooting for you and your children.

If I may ask, if it’s so bad that the pediatrician and Kindergarden teacher could be deposed, would they not have called CPS already as mandated reporters and these records could help make the case that your STBX is unfit?

Nope, depositions aren’t because something really bad has happened. They are just a way to seek more information. In the case of a parenting evaluation, my STBX’s attorney will likely depose some of my collateral contacts (who are also his) if his attorney doesn’t like the final report/recommendation submitted by the parenting evaluator. So for example, if the parenting evaluator says that STBX is emotionally disconnected and disengaged and this is supported by x, y and z interviews plus these tests and records from child a’s therapist, the attorney could depose the kindergarten teacher who interviewed us both. And they would hope that it would show that maybe the kindergarten teacher actually praised STBX as the best dad ever but that the evaluator somehow never asked that question about STBX even though they asked it about me. Or so on.

It really doesn’t have to do anything with being unfit/not unfit. I wish it was that black and white. And if it was a mandatory reporting situation that would have happened at a different point in the process but he still would have been given the chance at rehab, supervised visitation, etc.

The reality is that no matter how poorly this evaluation reflects on STBX, it is unlikely to reduce his time with the kids in the long run. At most it will force him into mental health treatment for a short period of time and require medical compliance for some other stuff, and maybe have a graduated plan for visitation.

Before you even think divorce, you need to understand the difference between what you know is in the best interests of your children and your state’s legal definition of “best interest of the children”. My state is heavily skewed towards “both parents involved”, and this is regardless of past engagement or parenting- it’s very focused on cultivating the potential of the non-primary caregiver and the belief that if given the chance to step up, they will become an engaged parent. Only after they actively fail and it’s documented over a period of time will I be able to go back and modify custody.

The law does not care about your children or your feelings. It does care about adult “rights” and in some states things have heavily overcorrected towards fathers’ rights. Proceed with extreme caution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did anyone leave a narcissist/BPD/ someone with anger issues and even though it was hard and you loved them and had kids with them, you are better off now?
My marriage just isn’t getting any better and my DH isn’t willing to do any work on himself or us to help it. I feel like I deserve better. He is a man with a lot of past trauma and while I feel for that; I can’t be his punching bag anymore.

Is this a clinical diagnosis or just a label you slapped on him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

Not the attorney but the parenting eval mom- mediation is just a sandbox for my DH and a place to kill time before trial. there’s no saving face because he can’t handle the give and take of it. He really is enjoying the legal aspects of divorce and what he sees as the chance to publicly humiliate me (I’m not at all! But I think he imagines that if the situation were reversed he would be incredibly humiliated so he’s pleased with how he’s done things).

Our state requires mediation before you’re allowed to go to court. I think that if he can sustain the energy and focus, he will not settle and will ultimately go through the motions of mediation just to take this to trial. In my county court will likely prescribe something basic and strict and very close to 50/50 for all aspects of money and custody stuff, and he will be thrilled with that outcome even if he never does 50/50 because he’ll get to “stick it to me” in public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

I’m the one who brought up parenting evaluations. In my case, my attorney and I selected the parenting evaluator and my STBX paid for it. This is not typical. His attorney suggested evaluators know for things such as favoring the more wealthy parent, favoring men, doing haphazard reports, etc. I knew going into the divorce that I would need an attorney well-versed in this process, my focus during my initial consults before hiring someone was to choose an attorney who really knew our local landscape of evaluators and (should it go to court) how judges respond to them. STBX has other diagnosed mental illnesses that he treats haphazardly, which may influence why he agreed to pay for the evaluation- he 100% hopes it will show me in a bad light.

If you don’t have an attorney who does this every week, the advice I’m replying to is very good and you do need to proceed with extreme caution. But if you have a choice between electing to hire a parenting evaluator vs taking the chance that your narcissist spouse will push a GAL or force an evaluator to be appointed by court, then you really need to be proactive and find an attorney who knows this process.

Once you’re in a divorce with someone like this, advice about what you avoid kind of goes out the window and it becomes more about making the best of truly horrible options. I cry or yell every day (when home alone) because it’s a hellscape.

I would have stayed in my marriage if I’d had the choice because it would have been an easier way to protect my kids.

I’m an attorney and they are not a magic fix for the vagaries and uncertainty of the court system and the risk of using a forensic evaluator who doesn’t have to follow rules of evidence etc. Judges can pick and choose what parts of the reports they want to use, if at all. In many cases, the reports are sloppy and even incorrect. In cases where they are ‘beneficial’ to the parent, they are often ignored by the judge. I suspect you are a ‘high net worth’ family or at least UMC, as those are the types who get steered to these pricey evaluations. They are a money making scam. Great for the psych who gets a nice fat paycheck from clients who can’t challenge their billing. But if you look into the data, they have no proven benefit to the families who pay for them

Oh for sure re: high net worth. STBX makes a ton of money and I’m sure his attorney was adding zeros the moment he did his initial intake. His preferred evaluators were probably sad to not get their giant retainer. And my attorney’s preferred evaluator probably did a happy dance knowing their bills are paid for a bit.

The evaluation was never my choice, it was STBX’s/his attorney’s- I probably didn’t make that clear- so I’m at least grateful that I had some input into who is doing it. I would never in a million years suggest that someone run out and proactively try to order one, especially if they’re divorcing a narcissist. I can’t think of a worse deliberate choice save for going straight to trial.

The only thing I’m glad about is that the longer the eval takes, the further we are from a final custody plan so I get that much more time to build up my kids and give them the strength and love they’ll need for the next phase of their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS from PP above: get everyone in therapy if they aren’t. Kids really need help but you also need records of the impact he’s had on them, whether you leave in a month, 6 months, two years, etc. Mine youngest does not go weekly so extracurriculars are not too impacted and they were reluctant, but has says it makes a big difference.

At what age did you sign them up for therapy?

Youngest was 8. I don’t know that it would have been helpful for my specific children if they were younger than that and maybe some kids wouldn’t be ready until they are older.

I think you know when they need an outside person to talk to. In my case they were really hurt and angry about how their father was treating them; that wasn’t initially obvious but the change in their demeanor and behavior was and that prompted the appointments in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

Parenting eval mom here. This is really good advice and basically what my attorney has also said. Multiple attorneys said to me in my initial consults that they really couldn’t be sure of a strategy up front and it would be tricky. The one who asserted that he knew just what to do was off my list immediately.

My attorney is trying to slow roll things whenever we can to give STBX room to hang himself. The less I do and the less I react, the more his bad judgement or behavior has come out. It takes patience and a willingness to put *all* emotion and reactivity aside. This is not easy. I chose an attorney who is a strong litigator but measured, calm and unemotional. I knew I would get emotional and frustrated and I didn’t need someone hyping me up further or stirring things up on STBX’s side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

Parenting eval mom here. This is really good advice and basically what my attorney has also said. Multiple attorneys said to me in my initial consults that they really couldn’t be sure of a strategy up front and it would be tricky. The one who asserted that he knew just what to do was off my list immediately.

My attorney is trying to slow roll things whenever we can to give STBX room to hang himself. The less I do and the less I react, the more his bad judgement or behavior has come out. It takes patience and a willingness to put *all* emotion and reactivity aside. This is not easy. I chose an attorney who is a strong litigator but measured, calm and unemotional. I knew I would get emotional and frustrated and I didn’t need someone hyping me up further or stirring things up on STBX’s side.

This is spot on. Seems like you have a good attorney

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.