Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.
NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.
The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).
My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.
These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.
Agree.
Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.
Also skip the $50k private evals.
The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.
If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.
It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.
ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.
Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.
To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent
No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.
If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.
Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.
This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?
Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.
The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.
I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.
Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!
I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.
Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.
Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.
This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.
People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.
And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?
Right. Scary to think about.
In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.
What kind of risks are you concerned about?
Risk of what the likely outcome will be if we go to court.
Is there a risk? I mean I get the fact that the outcome could very well be 50-50 but I don’t see it being less than that for you.
The very worst outcome from court would be 50/50. Any face saving offer I made still give DH that much custody but take something else off the table. Given the other details of our case, how STBX has behaved during the divorce, and our state's treatment of the status quo, the outcome in court is very likely to be far better than 50/50 without having to give away what would be necessary in my specific situation for DH to save face (which would be a lot). Known knowns and unknown knowns and all that.
When it comes to saving face, I think it's a spectrum and you really have to know your spouse and their psychology and family history. Some might trade a lot away for an NDA just to protect their work reputation, while others might have hangups that require them receiving a lot (50/50, the house, important cultural holidays, whatever) in order to make themselves look good to family and friends. The latter might not be worth the tradeoffs.
PP On my end I would be interested to allow DH to save face but for myself to get more custody time. I do make more money actually so that is not a huge leverage in terms of giving up my asks in exchange for custody.
My therapist says though that these types rarely take the full custody time they are entitled to because it’s too difficult and they want to have a limited fun time - and they do in their way of course, love their kids, not deal with the drudgery which throws them off anyway.
Anonymous wrote:For those who stayed, how do you manage to be intimate with your spouses, knowing full well how they treat you and your kids?
I had the fortunate excuse of a medical issue, surgery and long recovery that took specific kinds of intimacy off the table. The issues existed long before that but how I was treated when that part of my body was healing gave me a lot of information about our relationship.
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