Leaving a narcissist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

PP what if you never shared problems with the outside world? Friends are going to say he seems like a nice dad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

PP what if you never shared problems with the outside world? Friends are going to say he seems like a nice dad.

That is 100% one of my concerns. But when I discussed this more with my attorney and others who have gone through this process, the response was "how much more than that can they say about him?". Literally it stops there. He wasn't the one showing up for the extra shift at the swim meet that no one else wanted to do, or to coach 1st grade soccer, or to stay late to help another friend clean up at the bouncy house party, or a the 4th last-minute pediatrician appointment that year. He's never picked up a sick kid at school. Anyone who is asked questions about me is eventually going to be stopped because there's plenty to say, whereas with DH people really don't know much below the surface. But whether or not this gets below the surface is luck: it will take conversations going the right way and staying on track, a good evaluator, and the right collateral contacts being available and chosen from the lists. It could go awry.

And honestly, people picked up on stuff even though I worked my tail off trying to cover for him. People notice things more than you would think.

It is the rare dad who "seems like a nice dad", isn't a nice dad, but is also doing all of the caregiving and heavy lifting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

NP. In a similar situation with the posters here unfortunately. Since you’re in the legal field - what constitutes CPS level abuse? I would imagine rough handling an elementary school child and displaying scary anger around them on a repeated basis (yelling, disparaging remarks, slamming doors, throwing objects - but not at them) does not qualify, but would appreciate an expert opinion.

You can google the state definitions but essentially it needs to be serious physical or emotional harm or putting them at imminent risk of harm.

Not just ‘dad squeezed my arm’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

Are you a psychologist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

Why do you need to pay a psychologist 50k if your STBX already has a documented history of mental health issues? Why can’t you just use those records or that info? Same with non compliance. What does a psychologist add that couldn’t be brought up anyway?

These evaluations are referred to in most jurisdictions as ‘custody evaluations’ or ‘forensics’. Same thing.

You can talk to your attorney about anything but they will have no control over what the FE asks you, what they ask others, what they include or choose to include etc. Or whether the judge will even rely on the report. And as I mentioned above, IME many of these evaluators don’t necessarily even have specific training in things that one would find important - like interviewing children as one example.

It is a shady industry. But again, these psychologists have no reason to object. It’s easy money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

NP. In a similar situation with the posters here unfortunately. Since you’re in the legal field - what constitutes CPS level abuse? I would imagine rough handling an elementary school child and displaying scary anger around them on a repeated basis (yelling, disparaging remarks, slamming doors, throwing objects - but not at them) does not qualify, but would appreciate an expert opinion.

You can google the state definitions but essentially it needs to be serious physical or emotional harm or putting them at imminent risk of harm.

Not just ‘dad squeezed my arm’

I thought emotional harm does not matter for CPS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

Why do you need to pay a psychologist 50k if your STBX already has a documented history of mental health issues? Why can’t you just use those records or that info? Same with non compliance. What does a psychologist add that couldn’t be brought up anyway?

These evaluations are referred to in most jurisdictions as ‘custody evaluations’ or ‘forensics’. Same thing.

You can talk to your attorney about anything but they will have no control over what the FE asks you, what they ask others, what they include or choose to include etc. Or whether the judge will even rely on the report. And as I mentioned above, IME many of these evaluators don’t necessarily even have specific training in things that one would find important - like interviewing children as one example.

It is a shady industry. But again, these psychologists have no reason to object. It’s easy money.

Mentally ill spouse is the one ordering it in my case. So lord knows what he’s thinking. I would never have bothered and would have just pulled his appointment history and prescriptions in discovery- not even his actual health records would have been necessary.

I don’t think he has disclosed his health history to his attorney so they are probably both excited to “get” me. Should be productive for everyone involved, especially bystanders like our children, teachers, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

You are not cynical. ‘Family law’ is considered a ‘growth industry’ within the legal industry. The move away from women almost automatically receiving custody has been tremendously financially beneficial to a lot of people bc now you have two people want to fight it out, and the law is on the side of men who think they should have custody even if they didn’t do any child rearing before the separation. It’s also better to have more custody time for $$ reasons also. I’m not saying men can’t be primary caregivers btw or that there aren’t bad mothers. Personally I think the auto presumption (absent documented/CPS level abuse or neglect) should be that the primary caregiver prior to the separation should continue to be the primary caregiver and the other parent gets access. The end.

The problem is that the industry is making too much money to advocate for that. Why would they

Agree.
The 5% of divorces that go to court have at least one high conflict, mentally disordered irrational person with money.

The other 95% of divorces mediate.

[Anonymous]

NP What does discovery entail? Can you ask them to turn in anything? Including private text messages that show mental disorder? I bet they would delete them if that’s the case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

You are not cynical. ‘Family law’ is considered a ‘growth industry’ within the legal industry. The move away from women almost automatically receiving custody has been tremendously financially beneficial to a lot of people bc now you have two people want to fight it out, and the law is on the side of men who think they should have custody even if they didn’t do any child rearing before the separation. It’s also better to have more custody time for $$ reasons also. I’m not saying men can’t be primary caregivers btw or that there aren’t bad mothers. Personally I think the auto presumption (absent documented/CPS level abuse or neglect) should be that the primary caregiver prior to the separation should continue to be the primary caregiver and the other parent gets access. The end.

The problem is that the industry is making too much money to advocate for that. Why would they

Do you have an idea of why the law is on the side of men or do you mean just that it’s swung away from favoring mothers?

My limited experience so far as a mother in the family court system is that a man is given the benefit of the doubt and assumed to have potential, and any caregiving he hasn’t done isn’t held against him. Whereas the mother isn’t given credit for anything she has done and if she is trying to protect her kids she’s accused of gatekeeping or even alienation.

It feels pointless and sometimes hopeless, especially when you’re in proceedings against a husband who has been checked out and has mental issues.

[Anonymous]

Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Poster on 10/15/2025 @ 13:54, are you local, and, if so, would you mind sharing who your attorney is?

Anyone else out there in this situation with a good lawyer to recommend for dealing with a narc, especially in NoVa?

I think you’re asking me and I’m not local, but there seem to be at least 1-2 attorneys on this thread so I am hoping one of them can pop in with a recommendation for you.

I found mine not by looking for someone with experience specifically with narcissism (that seems to attract a certain kind of attorney that wasn’t the type I was looking for) but rather experience with litigation, high-conflict, and high net-worth divorce in that order. Don’t be afraid to talk to acquaintances who work way outside of family law, even if you have to fib and say it’s for a friend- my best referrals were from attorneys in random areas of practice.

One I got to initial consults, that’s when I started asking about mental health issues, how that might impact custody, etc. If you can, try to complete at least 3-4 legal consults at a slow pace to get the lay of the land and really understand how different attorneys operate.

Even though I work with attorneys daily in my job, I did not understand how to judge attorney’s working personalities within family law until many intake calls, forms, and maybe 4 consults. It feels like a very different corner of the legal world from anything I have encountered in my professional career and that made it hard to make a personal representation decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

I think this really varies by the culture of different jurisdictions. We have never called it forensics where I’ve worked but I hear where you are coming from.

Having worked in several counties on both coasts, the approach I’ve seen to parenting evaluations (both private and court-ordered) and how they’re managed in cases and by attorneys has been quite different and gives truths to both types of comments that are popping up here.

Take time during your initial consults to understand what is normal practice in your county and then really work with your attorney to understand the best path forward. You also have to balance whatever your spouse has in their records with what you have going on. If your spouse has a known and documented history of serious mental health issues, non-compliance, etc., at some point you need to decide that the trade off of exposing some minor sh-t on your side is worth it to protect your kids from major sh-t on their side.

This is why you really need an attorney to dig through your situation and talk you through how your county typically approaches similar cases before jumping in headfirst and agreeing to a parenting evaluation and screwing yourself, or blowing it off and maybe painting yourself into a worse corner.

People are asking good questions here. There aren’t good choices but there can be bad choices, if that makes sense.

And you also have to think about the end game, right? Is it worth it to risk all of this when dad will get custody time no matter what? Vs just coming up with a face-saving offer?

Right. Scary to think about.

In my case: I know my STBX and I know that eventually he gets tired and bored. I’m banking on him losing interest or focus in this process as it demands more of him and he loses momentum. He assumed I would fold quickly and now he’s confused. I’ve also studied a lot of game theory. On paper I’ve accounted for the risk to the extent that I can, and it outweighs the downsides of a guaranteed face-saving offer that I know he would take. But this is real life, not math, and anything could happen.