Leaving a narcissist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

Parenting eval mom here. This is really good advice and basically what my attorney has also said. Multiple attorneys said to me in my initial consults that they really couldn’t be sure of a strategy up front and it would be tricky. The one who asserted that he knew just what to do was off my list immediately.

My attorney is trying to slow roll things whenever we can to give STBX room to hang himself. The less I do and the less I react, the more his bad judgement or behavior has come out. It takes patience and a willingness to put *all* emotion and reactivity aside. This is not easy. I chose an attorney who is a strong litigator but measured, calm and unemotional. I knew I would get emotional and frustrated and I didn’t need someone hyping me up further or stirring things up on STBX’s side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

My lawyer also told me that there is enough there that I could request a parental evaluation. BUT my question is - will these people not fudge the answers? As in, my husband has severe anger management problems where he has pushed and shoved both me and our two children, thrown things, etc, but if asked by a psychologist - do you ever take out your anger on others? He would just answer “no, the most I do is raise my voice or take space in a different room”. So are these evaluations valuable when the one who is evaluated knows exactly what the right answer is to the questions they will be asked?

If all they do is a brief focused evaluation, a lot can be obscured. But if you can get the specific mental health testing ordered, that’s different. It’s not perfect but one component in many is the MMPI, which can’t be gamed or faked, and is specifically made to pick up on people trying to game it. A PhD level evaluator (not a lcsw or family therapist) is going to go deeper than that. I’m at the beginning of the process and it will take 5-6 months or more, and includes lots of meetings with collateral contacts for my kids, STBX, and me (who knows who STBX has to speak on behalf of him), release of mental health records if appropriate (I don’t have any, STBX’s are extensive), etc. It’s not just a 3-hour conversation but months of work if done right.

Now the scary thing is that an attorney can come back around later and depose anyone involved if they don’t like the results- so my current nightmare is imagining my kid’s kindergarten teacher, pediatrician, or my friends having to get deposed by STBX’s attorney.

I’m the lawyer who posted above. You could ask for mental health records and testimony of teachers etc without the forensic layer. In fact these reports are pretty much all hearsay upon hearsay, and sort of crap from a litigation standpoint. The best thing they can be used for is encouraging a party to settle- which narcs often don’t want to do.

PP. in your experience as a lawyer, what works best with narcs who want to maintain a good public image? Mediation to allow them to save face?

I’m going to be honest. It’s a crapshoot with these types so you have to try different methods and see what they care about. Yes, often it’s saving face. Making them feel like they’ve won. Often it is money. Or a combo of the two. Be boring is the best advice I have. And if you end up in court, let them show their true selves to the people involved, don’t try to match their ‘hard ball’ tactics (I cringe when people say they want a ‘pit bull lawyer’). It can take time to do that, unfortunately as most are good at initial impression management.

Parenting eval mom here. This is really good advice and basically what my attorney has also said. Multiple attorneys said to me in my initial consults that they really couldn’t be sure of a strategy up front and it would be tricky. The one who asserted that he knew just what to do was off my list immediately.

My attorney is trying to slow roll things whenever we can to give STBX room to hang himself. The less I do and the less I react, the more his bad judgement or behavior has come out. It takes patience and a willingness to put *all* emotion and reactivity aside. This is not easy. I chose an attorney who is a strong litigator but measured, calm and unemotional. I knew I would get emotional and frustrated and I didn’t need someone hyping me up further or stirring things up on STBX’s side.

This is spot on. Seems like you have a good attorney

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. Can we also list out tactics that have worked for folks staying in the marriage to best protect the kids? Like when DH is going nuts on yourselves, the kids, what are tactics that have worked to keep them at bay (as much as possible)? Or what do you coach the kids to do?

I’m in a Dr marshack zoom support group that touches on that and tips. Only need about 6 mos and it starts repeating, people coping with mentally disordered spouses of all ages come and go.

[Anonymous]

This thread is heavy stuff and no trolls. Good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

I’m the one who brought up parenting evaluations. In my case, my attorney and I selected the parenting evaluator and my STBX paid for it. This is not typical. His attorney suggested evaluators know for things such as favoring the more wealthy parent, favoring men, doing haphazard reports, etc. I knew going into the divorce that I would need an attorney well-versed in this process, my focus during my initial consults before hiring someone was to choose an attorney who really knew our local landscape of evaluators and (should it go to court) how judges respond to them. STBX has other diagnosed mental illnesses that he treats haphazardly, which may influence why he agreed to pay for the evaluation- he 100% hopes it will show me in a bad light.

If you don’t have an attorney who does this every week, the advice I’m replying to is very good and you do need to proceed with extreme caution. But if you have a choice between electing to hire a parenting evaluator vs taking the chance that your narcissist spouse will push a GAL or force an evaluator to be appointed by court, then you really need to be proactive and find an attorney who knows this process.

Once you’re in a divorce with someone like this, advice about what you avoid kind of goes out the window and it becomes more about making the best of truly horrible options. I cry or yell every day (when home alone) because it’s a hellscape.

I would have stayed in my marriage if I’d had the choice because it would have been an easier way to protect my kids.

PP How do you best protect your kids in such a marriage? Do essentially all of the parenting? What if he plays with their minds and tries to turn them against you and dazzles them with unlimited screen time behind your back when he’s feeling in the mood to make up for the bad parenting the remainder of the time?

Yes, I did basically all of the parenting. He popped in for the fun stuff but would literally leave a room when it got hard from the very earliest days. I mean like he’d take a long bathroom break just when our first was an infant and couldn’t calm down but also needed a diaper change and a bottle all at once.

I posted about my kids being extremely busy and mostly out of the house from a young age. Imagine the most time-consuming sports with bad reputations: that’s what they do. So they are rarely at home and spent lots of time with me in the car or on the road at competitions and surrounded by friends and their families (and normal parents), because STBX hated driving them and socializing with other parents. When they were home, he didn’t make much of an attempt to dazzle them with stuff like screen time. He does dazzle them with amazing special stuff from frequent trips abroad. It’s especially tough with the tween and teen girls because he gets collector stuff or fashion things before we get them here. But that moment lasts for an hour or so plus the day they show it off to their friends, and then they come back to me.

He went through a phase of trying to turn them against me but even the youngest came to me and said “daddy said the weirdest thing to me.” I have to be scrupulous about receiving that information in a neutral way. And when he mistreats them, it’s a fine line between validating their hurt vs talking trash about him. That’s why a therapist is important- they need space where they can put all that and where someone else can document it who is neutral and can see it from my child’s perspective and not mine.

It is a constant process of eating sh-t, if I’m honest, but if I do it right I think it will help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

[Anonymous]

[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

You are not cynical. ‘Family law’ is considered a ‘growth industry’ within the legal industry. The move away from women almost automatically receiving custody has been tremendously financially beneficial to a lot of people bc now you have two people want to fight it out, and the law is on the side of men who think they should have custody even if they didn’t do any child rearing before the separation. It’s also better to have more custody time for $$ reasons also. I’m not saying men can’t be primary caregivers btw or that there aren’t bad mothers. Personally I think the auto presumption (absent documented/CPS level abuse or neglect) should be that the primary caregiver prior to the separation should continue to be the primary caregiver and the other parent gets access. The end.

The problem is that the industry is making too much money to advocate for that. Why would they

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

Agree.

Skip the govt social worker flying monkey.

Also skip the $50k private evals.

The writing is on the way, no documented physical abuse to the kids, then you need a strategy to walk the dysfunctional narc back from 50/50.

If your spouse's attorney files a motion ordering it, you can't skip it or worse, if you don't agree it's my understanding that you would have to go the public route and do an evaluation through the courts. So you need to be prepared, especially if they have the financial means to spend freely on legal fun and games. Find an attorney who has experience and can prepare you for the process, because the more disordered your spouse is, the more likely that are to try to flip the script and throw every possible bit of an evaluation at you. It's terrifying, but if you're scared or worried that's probably a sign that you are a normal and stable parent.

It is really upsetting to realize that someone you have children with and shared the most intimate parts of your life with is willing to put a child through such an invasive process. Attorneys are indeed complicit in this; my STBX has been played by his attorney who said it's "no big deal" and "standard". STBX knows so little that he didn't even realize that our children would be involved in it. I hate to be cynical or sound like an instagram divorce influencer conspiracist (yes, that's a thing), but there are a lot of people happy to make a lot of money in the name of "best interests of the children" while having anything but that in mind.

ITA about your last comment. I’m a lawyer so I really wanted to avoid litigation… boy howdy there are a lot of people out there willing to take your money who have no professional boundaries. Like the “collaborative divorce” idea wherein the divorcing couple would have a lawyer each, a mediator, a therapist, and a financial advisor on the “team”. That’s like $5000/hr in professional services! All bets are off if you are divorcing a mentally unstable person, but even in that case, my viewpoint is now that just going straight to a lawyer to write up a reasonable settlement offer is the best course of action.

Dp. Yes, but these types often refuse to do that.

To respond to the question above, if your ex proposes an evaluation, you don’t have to acquiesce. The judge might end up ordering one anyway, but initially af least you can say you don’t consent

No, you don’t. But you need to think through your strategy here and maintain control where you can.

If they have the money or you have they money, and if your attorney feels that their attorney is open for 1:1 discussion of your evaluator choice, I would consent once you get them to agree to a short list of your evaluators.

Otherwise it risks going into the courts and you could have a court-assigned evaluator and you lose even more control. Or worse, their attorney could say, fine, if you won’t agree to an evaluation then we’re scheduling a hearing on temporary orders for a parenting plan and temporary financial orders. You really don’t want that unless you’re cool with strict 50/50 custody in the standard way set by your county (which might be 5 pm Friday to 5 pm the next Friday or you’re in contempt, or who knows what else), child support off the state minimum tables, etc. If you are already strategizing here, I’m guessing you are not the kind of person who is ok with those outcomes.

This really isn’t strategy. Are you an FE?

Again, anyone can propose anything. You don’t have to acquiesce to any of it. As far as evaluations, the evaluators come off a list of ‘approved evaluators’. Judges almost always let the parties work together to choose one or at least a short list, with the judge being the tie breaker if you can’t agree.

The others side attorney can suggest a hearing on a temp plan at any time. Agreeing or not agreeing to a forensic does not change that. You can also be the one who suggests temp orders.

I’ve seen judges decline to order forensics a number of times when the parties don’t agree on needing one. I would never recommend that someone consent except in very unusual circumstances bc then you’ve essentially given up your right to appeal if the report is adverse. And it can be. Those MMPI will be given to both parties, and everyone has some pathology- everyone. And a forensic and a judge can choose which traits to focus on. And again, if you’re in the world of having a forensic, 9.99 times out of 10, you have been identified as having $$$. Thats what these reports are about more than anything. That and kicking the can down the road so the judge doesn’t have to decide what to do about the mess in front of them.

Funny how poor or LMC people in custody cases don’t often need forensics!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP Even as it relates to physical abuse, I was told it needs to be severe, not shoving or grabbing, for it to make any difference.

NP and my attorney (not DMV) shared that even in the case of a someone he represented who beat his wide in front of their children, he eventually got 50/50 because they went to court and the judge said that he didn’t beat the children so it was ok.

The only hope is to do a parenting evaluation, and pay for it out of pocket with a private evaluator, not a state provided one. My narcissist got his attorney to do one because he is hoping it will make me look bad. He isn’t yet aware that it will include extensive mental health testing for him. At most that will buy us a graduated custody plan and maybe 6-12 months of therapy and medical intervention for him (he has other things going for which he is not compliant with treatment which could also endanger the kids).

My final hope is that this drags out for so long that he loses interest in whatever he’s trying to prove and doesn’t ultimately want 50/50, or it goes long enough that my youngest is the age when our state begins to consider kids’ input.

These parenting evaluations- called custody evaluations or ‘forensics’ usually end up being extremely disappointing to the normal parent and often backfire. These psychologists fleece people, and often write sloppy reports that are extremely hard to challenge. These evaluations are not recommended by pro child groups, and they can end up costing tens of thousands of dollars, and extend the litigation so more legal fees are paid too. Please do not recommend these to others.

What is the reason pro child groups are against evaluations?

Because they rarely seem to benefit children or families, and they aren’t particularly regulated so they can be a total crap shoot.

Crazily the courts don’t even care to track and see how families that have undergone them turn out.

They have several benefits - most of which have nothing to do with the families. 1, they allow the court to move your case down the line, freeing up time and hoping you’ll both get tired and settle. This avoids a trial and the judge being appealed. If there was CPS level abuse, you wouldn’t be doing a forensic, there’d be other interventions, and CPS investigations follow precise rules and frankly are far more legitimate than any psych report. So a family assigned a forensic evaluation is generally viewed by all in the system as being made up of two ‘high conflict’ parents (both of you) and honestly also high net worth bc these tend to be very expensive, and the judge is hoping you just go away. The lawyers don’t mind bc you’re paying them while this all happens. I’m a lawyer but let’s be honest. Lawyers make the most when the cases drag on.

2. The forensic psych - often a psych without a profitable private practice- gets a huge paycheck for work they do mostly on their own schedule and largely unsupervised. There are very few clear rules about ‘forensics’ and how they are to be conducted. A shocking number of these court approved psych have little to no training in how to interview children, as example. It’s shockingly unregulated.

NP. In a similar situation with the posters here unfortunately. Since you’re in the legal field - what constitutes CPS level abuse? I would imagine rough handling an elementary school child and displaying scary anger around them on a repeated basis (yelling, disparaging remarks, slamming doors, throwing objects - but not at them) does not qualify, but would appreciate an expert opinion.