New Year Eve's Coordinated Sexual Assault Attacks in Cologne

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:German law regarding crime and asylum seekers:

http://aranews.net/2016/01/germany-divided-over-expulsion-of-convicted-asylum-seekers/

Is it "better" than our laws?

What it means is that Syrian refugees cannot be deported, not by Germany or by any other country, including the US.

Yet Obama's deporting Spanish speaking criminals right now, isn't he?

Not to Syria. Countries can only lock up Syrian refugees, not deport them to a country in a state of war.

For the ones in the country already due to misguided policies who violate lock them up. Strictly vet the remainder trying to get in.

[Anonymous]

Thought I read somewhere that serious problems such as these occur with a gender imbalance.

[Anonymous]

I now see Canada's allowance of only intact Syrian families, women and children in as a far better well thought out policy than Germany's indiscriminate free for all. Will be watching what happens in the US carefully and this may very well influence my vote during the upcoming election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Oh, my goodness. You sound so idealistic, so misguided in your certainty. First, you are collapsing several different posters into one apparently, assumedly so as to present the "worst" composite sketch possible. Second, probably most of those commenters, including myself, are in fact feminists, not "anti-feminists" (whatever your last sociology professor taught you that "word" means).

You sound really young. I will give you some advice. Try not to spew your outrage all over the room indiscriminately. You make more enemies than allies by doing so, even if it allows you to luxuriate in your much needed feelings of moral superiority. Also, my guess is I've been working for women's rights since before you were able to spout your first piece of sanctimonious PC bullshit. (I've worked years full-time for little pay at very well known non-profits for reproductive rights, for example.)

Just to remind you, this thread is about coordinated sexual assault in Cologne. But you just go ahead and keep lecturing the rest of us about rape kits and revenge porn. Because you do seem to be getting something out of it, at least.

I must be doing something right if at 35 I still sound young and idealistic. You don't sound bright, that's for sure, if you can't see the point I was making, connecting assaults on women's rights (just to remind you, the coordinated sexual assaults in Cologne are one of these).

You sound really dull and unable to see abstract issues, so I will say it shorter and more clearly: women's rights are being chipped away by different cultures the world over. Again, why is this happening now?

I don't believe you work for reproductive rights, and I don't believe you're a feminist. "Sanctimonious PC bullshit"? "Whatever your last sociology professor told you"? The feminists I know tend to be thoughtful, intelligent women, not people who sound like my right wing uncle lecturing me for keeping my last name.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thought I read somewhere that serious problems such as these occur with a gender imbalance.

China has a severe gender imbalance. It shows up in young men needing to pay astronomical dowries in order to marry wives, not mass sexual assaults on NYE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else see the ludicrous in both importing men with this 'cultural lack of behavior' and simultaneously disarming the American public?

+1,000

+1,000,000

Actually I think it's ludicrous that you'd want to ensure that guns are readily available to these imported men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

+1

+2

+3

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

No it was not "a whole bunch of different women". It was one poster -- apparently female -- who attacked me twice and who was clearly seeking a fight. I've been trying to see where a lot of different posters (I never know their sex for sure) are coming from. There are even women who are reluctant to join this thread because of the reactions any opinion that is a little bit different provokes. A man is an easy target. Instead of responding to ideas I am presenting, just pick a phrase that doesn't meet your approval. That's the easy way of avoiding a discussion and "winning" a debate. Of course that pisses me off.

in your eyes on so many levels as well
Poor, poor men!


In this case, I'd defend any woman's right to pick a goddamn fight considering that this is a clear case of sexual assault. Every woman has a right to be outraged. What if one of the German women had been your daughter? your wife? your sister? "Oh hon, it's not his fault. He just needs a bit of retraining b/c he's been a victim of culture shock."

Women are victims, and NO class will ever train those animals in Cologne (or any other place for that matter where women are viewed as pieces of meat) to view women as equals.

How PC have your responses been in regard to this matter? Fuck PC, I say. PC keeps the status quo b/c it creates too much fear in people to resurrect the ugly truths about humanity. We've gone too far with PC.

But it was indeed PC of you to bring up classes, right? b/c you feared that we'd go down the "refugee route"

Well there's some truth to how culture shapes our views, right? You'd agree to that.

Yes, we have Universal Declaration on Human Rights. and what stemmed from it - Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women

Article 5 pertains here. - (a)

To modify the social and cultural patterns of conduct of men and women, with a view to achieving the elimination of prejudices and customary and all other practices which are based on the idea of the inferiority or the superiority of either of the sexes or on stereotyped roles for men and women

And the measures agreed upon urge that

". . . States parties effectively to adopt education and public information programmes, which will help eliminate prejudices and current practices that hinder the full operation of the principle of the social equality of women.

which all circles back to your "course" suggestion

So in the meantime, we must continue to make excuses for their behavior (brought on by some cultural clash) while we design modules that train men to keep their penises in their pants and their hands to themselves.

such bullshit!

my main question - Why should a HOST country be responsible for these educational programs? And if these host countries must TRAIN these men to keep their dicks in their pants, isn't there something inherently wrong with this thinking - especially if viewed through a PC lens?

After all, who are we (any host country) to "judge" cultural beliefs? If a man rules the roost in country X, shouldn't we "honor" that?

Hell, I would. Just keep your "men" in your country and away from my enlightened sisters - and brothers, for that matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did Germans not realize that it takes decades - even centuries for cultures to change ingrained attitudes? Women's rights as they are known in the West came as the result of centuries of struggle. Why do European immigration advocates think that acceptable attitudes to women and other progressive attitudes can be taught to people from societies where none of these are present. I defies logic to think that Germans and Swedes are under the impression that centuries of attitudes towards women's position in society and sexual attitudes of males can be changed with a weekend course in European culture.

Europe's liberals are simply rolling back decades of struggle.

Sweden has nothing to brag about. It has some of the highest levels of abuse against women in the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/08/europe/europe-new-year-alleged-violence/

Why the non stop apologists? Why freezing threads over this?

This article upsets me and I feel so badly for European countries that tried to do the right thing over the past few years and now their countries are unsafe, have many terrorists, and their cultures are being jeopardized. Legally, can they send the immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers back if they are not citizens yet? Why so many protections for people that are not even citizens and it appears that no protection for the citizens of these countries? Why would anyone defend these men or their culture? I have many Persian friends and they would never defend these men or this culture and in fact they fled the Middle East to escape this culture. So why would anyone defend this? If you read this article and the many articles online and the news reports about this, there are numerous reports of attacks and if you look online you can see that there have been reports of attacks for months now but no one will listen to these people. There is a small town in Norway I believe that received 100 refugees - mostly men and there are reports of attacks and crime now in the town that had zero crime before. Why brush these reports and complaints under the rug? I see no reason to do this and especially to "protect" the refugees, asylum seekers, and immigrants at any cost to the citizens of those countries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Germans not realize that it takes decades - even centuries for cultures to change ingrained attitudes? Women's rights as they are known in the West came as the result of centuries of struggle. Why do European immigration advocates think that acceptable attitudes to women and other progressive attitudes can be taught to people from societies where none of these are present. I defies logic to think that Germans and Swedes are under the impression that centuries of attitudes towards women's position in society and sexual attitudes of males can be changed with a weekend course in European culture.

Europe's liberals are simply rolling back decades of struggle.

Sweden has nothing to brag about. It has some of the highest levels of abuse against women in the world.

Perpetrated by men who are not Swedish natives!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did Germans not realize that it takes decades - even centuries for cultures to change ingrained attitudes? Women's rights as they are known in the West came as the result of centuries of struggle. Why do European immigration advocates think that acceptable attitudes to women and other progressive attitudes can be taught to people from societies where none of these are present. I defies logic to think that Germans and Swedes are under the impression that centuries of attitudes towards women's position in society and sexual attitudes of males can be changed with a weekend course in European culture.

Europe's liberals are simply rolling back decades of struggle.

Sweden has nothing to brag about. It has some of the highest levels of abuse against women in the world.

Yes and there are many articles linking the rise of rape in Sweden to ...... Oh.... Immigrant men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thought I read somewhere that serious problems such as these occur with a gender imbalance.

China has a severe gender imbalance. It shows up in young men needing to pay astronomical dowries in order to marry wives, not mass sexual assaults on NYE.

You are ignorant about China. Chinese culture often holds that the woman bears responsibility for an act of rape. 1 in 10 rapes in China are reported because of this cultural stigma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thought I read somewhere that serious problems such as these occur with a gender imbalance.

China has a severe gender imbalance. It shows up in young men needing to pay astronomical dowries in order to marry wives, not mass sexual assaults on NYE.

You are ignorant about China. Chinese culture often holds that the woman bears responsibility for an act of rape. 1 in 10 rapes in China are reported because of this cultural stigma.

Yes... I am ignorant about China because I am Oh..Chinese? Rapes happen in every culture, I walk down there streets of Beijing and Shanghai not fearing groping, attacks or sexual assaults.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

No it was not "a whole bunch of different women". It was one poster -- apparently female -- who attacked me twice and who was clearly seeking a fight. I've been trying to see where a lot of different posters (I never know their sex for sure) are coming from. There are even women who are reluctant to join this thread because of the reactions any opinion that is a little bit different provokes. A man is an easy target. Instead of responding to ideas I am presenting, just pick a phrase that doesn't meet your approval. That's the easy way of avoiding a discussion and "winning" a debate. Of course that pisses me off.

in your eyes on so many levels as well
Poor, poor men!


In this case, I'd defend any woman's right to pick a goddamn fight considering that this is a clear case of sexual assault. Every woman has a right to be outraged. What if one of the German women had been your daughter? your wife? your sister? "Oh hon, it's not his fault. He just needs a bit of retraining b/c he's been a victim of culture shock."

Women are victims, and NO class will ever train those animals in Cologne (or any other place for that matter where women are viewed as pieces of meat) to view women as equals.

How PC have your responses been in regard to this matter? Fuck PC, I say. PC keeps the status quo b/c it creates too much fear in people to resurrect the ugly truths about humanity. We've gone too far with PC.

But it was indeed PC of you to bring up classes, right? b/c you feared that we'd go down the "refugee route"

Well there's some truth to how culture shapes our views, right? You'd agree to that.

Yes, we have Universal Declaration on Human Rights. and what stemmed from it - Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women

Article 5 pertains here. - (a)

To modify the social and cultural patterns of conduct of men and women, with a view to achieving the elimination of prejudices and customary and all other practices which are based on the idea of the inferiority or the superiority of either of the sexes or on stereotyped roles for men and women

And the measures agreed upon urge that

". . . States parties effectively to adopt education and public information programmes, which will help eliminate prejudices and current practices that hinder the full operation of the principle of the social equality of women.

which all circles back to your "course" suggestion

So in the meantime, we must continue to make excuses for their behavior (brought on by some cultural clash) while we design modules that train men to keep their penises in their pants and their hands to themselves.

such bullshit!

my main question - Why should a HOST country be responsible for these educational programs? And if these host countries must TRAIN these men to keep their dicks in their pants, isn't there something inherently wrong with this thinking - especially if viewed through a PC lens?

After all, who are we (any host country) to "judge" cultural beliefs? If a man rules the roost in country X, shouldn't we "honor" that?

Hell, I would. Just keep your "men" in your country and away from my enlightened sisters - and brothers, for that matter.

Well, first of all I should warn you that F bombs are apparently frowned upon in this discussion. Though something tells me you will have less critics than I did. I would like to have a discussion with you, but I am not interested in discussing straw men, mischaracterizations, falsehood, and outright lies. If you want to argue with a figment of your imagination, please do it some place else.

I am not the one who suggested classes or first brought them up in the discussion. Classes are not the only option I suggest as a response. Classes were merely something that came up in the discussion and an idea with which I concur. Are you as strongly opposed to the classes regarding sexual assault that are now standard on many US college campuses? Are you similarly opposed to the sexual discrimination training that is required by many US corporations?

I disagree with you that men cannot be reached via education and persuasion. Maybe not all, but some.

I don't think holding all refugees or all members of a religion or all members of an ethnicity responsible for the acts of some is reasonable. Similarly, I don't agree with assigning certain negative characteristics to all members of any of these groups.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, but certainly I agree with it. I'm confused why you seem to be attacking me for supporting ideas that are outlined in it. Are you opposed to the Convention?

I make no excuses for sexual assault by anyone against anyone. At no point have I suggested cultural beliefs shouldn't be judged.

The main point that I've been trying to make since joining this discussion is that there is no disagreement with regard to the crimes and violence committed in Cologne. On the topic of sexual assault, I doubt that my personal views are very different than any of the most fierce women's advocates here. If you want to focus on stoping sexual assaults, I am completely with you. Where I disagree with some here is when this issue is used to oppose refugees or to attack Muslims or Arabs.

Basically, we can work together to oppose and perhaps even prevent sexual assault, or we can fight about refugees. Which seems like the most productive course?