What do you do when your adult child goes into therapy and lays blame at your feet.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Your problem is equating any criticism of OP with "condeming" her, and any attempt to understand her child or see his point of view with "abject self-abasement." Which speaks volumes about your own ability to handle criticism, and hence puts your view of OP's situation into a certain light.

Slightly related, my 40 something dh is going through some things emotionally and trying to make sense of a couple of childhood occurrences. He asked hid mom to fill in the blanks or set the record straight on 2 things. She answered his questions and he thought it was a good talk. He never mentioned to her the horrible fights his parents had, nor the effect they had on him. She called him a week later and asked if he-thought she was a bad mom. He told her she did the best she could (she was a bad mom, imo) and that he was trying to understand why he feels and reacts a certain way when it comes to feeling and expressing emotions. He never blamed or accused her of anything. The next time they spoke, she cried to him about the horrible fights her parents had in front of her and her siblings and how they were scared and cried and hid (dh and sibs did same). Dh now sees and is trying to accept that he cannot have more than a superficial relationship with his mom. He told her he was suffering and she found a way to make it about her and her suffering.

Don't you think that DHs suffering is an extension of his mom's suffering? Her history puts his experience into context. It's like a person that grew up poor and blaming his parents without understanding what brought them into poverty. Just resenting your parents without context is simplistic childish thinking.

He doesn't resent her, he loves her. Unfortunately, she and his dad (perhaps unintentionally) placed him in the role of "parent" when he was a boy. They didn't take care of his emotional and, oftentimes, physical needs. Interestingly, despite his sh1t childhood, he is a wonderful father. Our kids have a calm, stable and loving home. If dh could overcome a bad childhood, his parents certainly could have, too.

It's possible he had a better childhood than his mother did.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

You have no idea what OP said to her child because all she’s told us is that she apologized. Really, you need to let this go and find peace for yourself in ways that are real.

I’m truly curious why you think all DCUM posts need to give the OP such deference. You seem to think that we have draw all possible favorable inferences for OP otherwise we are just projecting. What exactly do you think the exercise is here?

No. I’m simply saying that you shouldn’t draw all possible negative inferences or make stuff up about OP.

Let OP’s posts stand on their own. You insisting on imposing your personal issues on OP isn’t helping anybody, least of all you.

So let me get this straight. Someone comes to DCUM to post a question, and the role of commenters is to strictly adhere to what the OP said and not try to gain any additional perspective or fill in any gaps, or make any inferences that might be anything but positive. Is that right? So basically this is a content-free "you go girl" support board?

Ma'am, this is DCUM.

Are you the poster that projected their own baggage onto this situation, imagining that OP did more than stated? If so that's not helpful. OP is not your momma.

+1000. Just stop already, pp with the mommy issues.

I don't know who you are calling "PP with the mommy issues," but I am different PP who commented upthread. So there are at least two of us who think OP sounds a little off base with her approach to the problem, and what she should do is a little more self-refelection. I know it's tempting to say we are all projecting or whatever, and yeah, I admit that I did used to have struggles with how my mom reacted when I approached her with feelings about how I was raised. But I am 40 and now I don't care at all. I love my mom. I know she did her best and I appreciate what she did. I do think she could have reacted better, but I'm at the point in my life where my thoughts around parenting are how *I* should parent.

Different poster here. There is not just one PP who thinks OP might be off base with their response.

When I say things like, "parents should practice empathic listening and show their child that they care about their child's feelings, regardless of how old their child is," I mean "I should practice empathic listening and show my child that I care about their feelings." I'm not thinking much about commenters here or OP, and not at all about my own mom. I'm thinking about general principals I apply to myself.

No, I don't have an adult child. But have I been chastised by my child's therapist for doing something wrong, even though I was doing my absolute best and what I was doing was by no means abuse? Yes, yes I have. My child's therapist basically said that I, a victim of childhood trauma and all-around anxious individual, had to be cool as a cucumber, pretty much all the time, because my anxious reaction to things were messing up my child. There was literally nothing more difficult she could have asked of me, and I honestly thought it was pretty unfair that my options were to change my very nature or traumatize my child.

I did change and become more calm, but not before I did some damage. I didn't know it, but my child is autistic. She has very mild PTSD from my parenting, even though the mistakes I made were things like walking to the other side of the room and screaming into my hands when frustrated, as opposed to yelling in her face.

I wouldn't exactly say that it was my fault that I parented in a way that was harmful to my child. I didn't know she was autistic. It was hard for me to be calm because I have my own issues--my mom was completely verbally abusive and neglectful to me. I found some really great parenting books and did my best to do everything right. And now that I know what to do differently, I do better. But none of that changes the fact that I did things that caused my child harm. I own that. And when my daughter talks to me about it (which is rare, but it happens), I don't talk about how I didn't know, or how hard I tried, or how I had a childhood that was way worse than hers. I just let her know that I am sorry and I wish I had done things differently and I'll do whatever I can to help her. She's 17 and I'm not going to stop doing this a year from now.

OK, and good for you. But OP never said she told her kid, “look what I did for you.” OP was venting to us. We still have no idea what she told her kid—whether she said that or not. Whether she made a strings-free apology or not. All this “surmising” from one or more posters that OP must be a terrible mom, based on what she said in an anonymous vent on an anonymous board, is just weird.

OP here. I did apologize to him for everything that hurt him. I said it was not intentional to hurt him. My marriage was not ideal, we didn't hide our fighting from the kids- we both have hot tempers and were stressed out when our kids were little. We didn't fight to hurt the kids. We stayed married because we didn't want to hurt the kids. We didn't know better at the time. We took our kids to church, not to hurt ds. Homeschooled because the publics were not good/rough. Pushed DS to go to college for the opportunity to learn and grow. None of this was easy BTW. Other than apologizing, I can't fix him or change the past.

Do you even care that your child is struggling enough to be in therapy? Wow.

GO away, you sadist!! PP, you are TRULY cruel and just plain nuts.

OP, you did a good job. Not all kids turn out well. You did the job, and the person he is is mix of that plus his innate personality. Hopefully with continued introspection, he'll realize that you did all that can be asked of any parent on the planet -- the best you knew how to do.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Your problem is equating any criticism of OP with "condeming" her, and any attempt to understand her child or see his point of view with "abject self-abasement." Which speaks volumes about your own ability to handle criticism, and hence puts your view of OP's situation into a certain light.

Slightly related, my 40 something dh is going through some things emotionally and trying to make sense of a couple of childhood occurrences. He asked hid mom to fill in the blanks or set the record straight on 2 things. She answered his questions and he thought it was a good talk. He never mentioned to her the horrible fights his parents had, nor the effect they had on him. She called him a week later and asked if he-thought she was a bad mom. He told her she did the best she could (she was a bad mom, imo) and that he was trying to understand why he feels and reacts a certain way when it comes to feeling and expressing emotions. He never blamed or accused her of anything. The next time they spoke, she cried to him about the horrible fights her parents had in front of her and her siblings and how they were scared and cried and hid (dh and sibs did same). Dh now sees and is trying to accept that he cannot have more than a superficial relationship with his mom. He told her he was suffering and she found a way to make it about her and her suffering.

OMG. Grow up. She was explaining why she was the parent she was. If he was so affected by his parents fighting, you'd think he could relate.

He never asked her about her parenting choices. She shared the story about her childhood for whatever reason: it could be like a pp said, that she wanted him to know she had a tough childhood, it could be she was anticipating that dh would eventually bring the fighting up (he never would) and wanted to seem sympathetic or who knows why. The effect it had was to make dh realize that she has never changed and that his emotional needs are not of concern to her. He still loves her, he just sees that their relationship is superficial at best. He grew out of the caretaker role and established boundaries when our kids were born. He wants to do better forour kids than he had.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Your problem is equating any criticism of OP with "condeming" her, and any attempt to understand her child or see his point of view with "abject self-abasement." Which speaks volumes about your own ability to handle criticism, and hence puts your view of OP's situation into a certain light.

Slightly related, my 40 something dh is going through some things emotionally and trying to make sense of a couple of childhood occurrences. He asked hid mom to fill in the blanks or set the record straight on 2 things. She answered his questions and he thought it was a good talk. He never mentioned to her the horrible fights his parents had, nor the effect they had on him. She called him a week later and asked if he-thought she was a bad mom. He told her she did the best she could (she was a bad mom, imo) and that he was trying to understand why he feels and reacts a certain way when it comes to feeling and expressing emotions. He never blamed or accused her of anything. The next time they spoke, she cried to him about the horrible fights her parents had in front of her and her siblings and how they were scared and cried and hid (dh and sibs did same). Dh now sees and is trying to accept that he cannot have more than a superficial relationship with his mom. He told her he was suffering and she found a way to make it about her and her suffering.

Don't you think that DHs suffering is an extension of his mom's suffering? Her history puts his experience into context. It's like a person that grew up poor and blaming his parents without understanding what brought them into poverty. Just resenting your parents without context is simplistic childish thinking.

He doesn't resent her, he loves her. Unfortunately, she and his dad (perhaps unintentionally) placed him in the role of "parent" when he was a boy. They didn't take care of his emotional and, oftentimes, physical needs. Interestingly, despite his sh1t childhood, he is a wonderful father. Our kids have a calm, stable and loving home. If dh could overcome a bad childhood, his parents certainly could have, too.

It's possible he had a better childhood than his mother did.

That's of little consolation when your childhood left you with feelings of shame and inadequacy. Somehow, he managed to not be a self absorbed, neglectful, abusive a hole to our kids. Becoming a parent made him see the reality of his childhood: his parents couldn't and wouldn't put their children ahead of their petty fights and profound dysfunction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

You have no idea what OP said to her child because all she’s told us is that she apologized. Really, you need to let this go and find peace for yourself in ways that are real.

I’m truly curious why you think all DCUM posts need to give the OP such deference. You seem to think that we have draw all possible favorable inferences for OP otherwise we are just projecting. What exactly do you think the exercise is here?

No. I’m simply saying that you shouldn’t draw all possible negative inferences or make stuff up about OP.

Let OP’s posts stand on their own. You insisting on imposing your personal issues on OP isn’t helping anybody, least of all you.

So let me get this straight. Someone comes to DCUM to post a question, and the role of commenters is to strictly adhere to what the OP said and not try to gain any additional perspective or fill in any gaps, or make any inferences that might be anything but positive. Is that right? So basically this is a content-free "you go girl" support board?

Ma'am, this is DCUM.

Are you the poster that projected their own baggage onto this situation, imagining that OP did more than stated? If so that's not helpful. OP is not your momma.

+1000. Just stop already, pp with the mommy issues.

I don't know who you are calling "PP with the mommy issues," but I am different PP who commented upthread. So there are at least two of us who think OP sounds a little off base with her approach to the problem, and what she should do is a little more self-refelection. I know it's tempting to say we are all projecting or whatever, and yeah, I admit that I did used to have struggles with how my mom reacted when I approached her with feelings about how I was raised. But I am 40 and now I don't care at all. I love my mom. I know she did her best and I appreciate what she did. I do think she could have reacted better, but I'm at the point in my life where my thoughts around parenting are how *I* should parent.

Different poster here. There is not just one PP who thinks OP might be off base with their response.

When I say things like, "parents should practice empathic listening and show their child that they care about their child's feelings, regardless of how old their child is," I mean "I should practice empathic listening and show my child that I care about their feelings." I'm not thinking much about commenters here or OP, and not at all about my own mom. I'm thinking about general principals I apply to myself.

No, I don't have an adult child. But have I been chastised by my child's therapist for doing something wrong, even though I was doing my absolute best and what I was doing was by no means abuse? Yes, yes I have. My child's therapist basically said that I, a victim of childhood trauma and all-around anxious individual, had to be cool as a cucumber, pretty much all the time, because my anxious reaction to things were messing up my child. There was literally nothing more difficult she could have asked of me, and I honestly thought it was pretty unfair that my options were to change my very nature or traumatize my child.

I did change and become more calm, but not before I did some damage. I didn't know it, but my child is autistic. She has very mild PTSD from my parenting, even though the mistakes I made were things like walking to the other side of the room and screaming into my hands when frustrated, as opposed to yelling in her face.

I wouldn't exactly say that it was my fault that I parented in a way that was harmful to my child. I didn't know she was autistic. It was hard for me to be calm because I have my own issues--my mom was completely verbally abusive and neglectful to me. I found some really great parenting books and did my best to do everything right. And now that I know what to do differently, I do better. But none of that changes the fact that I did things that caused my child harm. I own that. And when my daughter talks to me about it (which is rare, but it happens), I don't talk about how I didn't know, or how hard I tried, or how I had a childhood that was way worse than hers. I just let her know that I am sorry and I wish I had done things differently and I'll do whatever I can to help her. She's 17 and I'm not going to stop doing this a year from now.

I think this is very universal among parents, you love your kid, you tried your best, you made mistakes, and when you knew better you did better. Now if your DD comes back in 15 years after her therapy and blames you for doing this to her and naming it as the cause of this or that - your response will be? Probably 'I apologize'. But it may not be enough for her. She may want you to jump into the time machine and undo it and since you can't DD will need to heal herself. End of story.

Did OP’s son want her to jump into a time machine and redo his childhood? When was that said? It wasn’t. Looks like you may be reading into the post and making up facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

Wow, you really neglect to acknowledge anything that doesn’t support your view. How many times we have to say the poor choices on the way OP handled her marriage and homeschool negatively affected her son.


In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Has she acknowledged to her son that her choices were poor? OP? What did you say in your apology?

They weren't poor choices. Just because he didn't do well in college doesn't mean pushing him to go was a mistake. Most people want their kids to go to college and push them in that direction. OP did what she thought was right for him, given who he was and who she was at the time.

You want OP to suffer. I wonder why.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Your problem is equating any criticism of OP with "condeming" her, and any attempt to understand her child or see his point of view with "abject self-abasement." Which speaks volumes about your own ability to handle criticism, and hence puts your view of OP's situation into a certain light.

Slightly related, my 40 something dh is going through some things emotionally and trying to make sense of a couple of childhood occurrences. He asked hid mom to fill in the blanks or set the record straight on 2 things. She answered his questions and he thought it was a good talk. He never mentioned to her the horrible fights his parents had, nor the effect they had on him. She called him a week later and asked if he-thought she was a bad mom. He told her she did the best she could (she was a bad mom, imo) and that he was trying to understand why he feels and reacts a certain way when it comes to feeling and expressing emotions. He never blamed or accused her of anything. The next time they spoke, she cried to him about the horrible fights her parents had in front of her and her siblings and how they were scared and cried and hid (dh and sibs did same). Dh now sees and is trying to accept that he cannot have more than a superficial relationship with his mom. He told her he was suffering and she found a way to make it about her and her suffering.

Don't you think that DHs suffering is an extension of his mom's suffering? Her history puts his experience into context. It's like a person that grew up poor and blaming his parents without understanding what brought them into poverty. Just resenting your parents without context is simplistic childish thinking.

He doesn't resent her, he loves her. Unfortunately, she and his dad (perhaps unintentionally) placed him in the role of "parent" when he was a boy. They didn't take care of his emotional and, oftentimes, physical needs. Interestingly, despite his sh1t childhood, he is a wonderful father. Our kids have a calm, stable and loving home. If dh could overcome a bad childhood, his parents certainly could have, too.

It's possible he had a better childhood than his mother did.

That's of little consolation when your childhood left you with feelings of shame and inadequacy. Somehow, he managed to not be a self absorbed, neglectful, abusive a hole to our kids. Becoming a parent made him see the reality of his childhood: his parents couldn't and wouldn't put their children ahead of their petty fights and profound dysfunction.

Again, he probably had a better childhood than his mother did. That would explain why he is able to be a better parent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Has she acknowledged to her son that her choices were poor? OP? What did you say in your apology?

What I find interesting is that OP is sort of willing to acknowledge that some of her choices might have been wrong or harmful. But what she's really demanding is exactly how her son process that history -- she wants to control how he thinks and acts about it. She cannot accept that he has his own point of view. She believes that because she apologized that is "enough," because she tried her hardest and her son was "challenging." In short - really not a fruitful way to have a relationship.

Why can't that be true? She did her best. Her son was challenging. Have you REALLY not known any challenging kids? Really? Not talking about you for a second -- -- but seriously, you have never known a challenging child? A neighbor, your kids' classmates, a neighbor, a niece of nephew -- none?? They do exist. Some children are difficult. It's not wrong to say it like it is.

Of course I do. I have two challenging brothers, and what my parents did to them was awful. My parents would probably claim that I was challenging too (despite being NMFS and getting a huge college scholarship and being completely self-supporting from the minute I left home). Narcissistic/emotionally immature parents will always blame someone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Has she acknowledged to her son that her choices were poor? OP? What did you say in your apology?

What I find interesting is that OP is sort of willing to acknowledge that some of her choices might have been wrong or harmful. But what she's really demanding is exactly how her son process that history -- she wants to control how he thinks and acts about it. She cannot accept that he has his own point of view. She believes that because she apologized that is "enough," because she tried her hardest and her son was "challenging." In short - really not a fruitful way to have a relationship.

Why can't that be true? She did her best. Her son was challenging. Have you REALLY not known any challenging kids? Really? Not talking about you for a second -- -- but seriously, you have never known a challenging child? A neighbor, your kids' classmates, a neighbor, a niece of nephew -- none?? They do exist. Some children are difficult. It's not wrong to say it like it is.

Of course I do. I have two challenging brothers, and what my parents did to them was awful. My parents would probably claim that I was challenging too (despite being NMFS and getting a huge college scholarship and being completely self-supporting from the minute I left home). Narcissistic/emotionally immature parents will always blame someone else.

So you are not willing to admit that some children are challenging.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

You have no idea what OP said to her child because all she’s told us is that she apologized. Really, you need to let this go and find peace for yourself in ways that are real.

I’m truly curious why you think all DCUM posts need to give the OP such deference. You seem to think that we have draw all possible favorable inferences for OP otherwise we are just projecting. What exactly do you think the exercise is here?

No. I’m simply saying that you shouldn’t draw all possible negative inferences or make stuff up about OP.

Let OP’s posts stand on their own. You insisting on imposing your personal issues on OP isn’t helping anybody, least of all you.

So let me get this straight. Someone comes to DCUM to post a question, and the role of commenters is to strictly adhere to what the OP said and not try to gain any additional perspective or fill in any gaps, or make any inferences that might be anything but positive. Is that right? So basically this is a content-free "you go girl" support board?

Ma'am, this is DCUM.

Are you the poster that projected their own baggage onto this situation, imagining that OP did more than stated? If so that's not helpful. OP is not your momma.

+1000. Just stop already, pp with the mommy issues.

I don't know who you are calling "PP with the mommy issues," but I am different PP who commented upthread. So there are at least two of us who think OP sounds a little off base with her approach to the problem, and what she should do is a little more self-refelection. I know it's tempting to say we are all projecting or whatever, and yeah, I admit that I did used to have struggles with how my mom reacted when I approached her with feelings about how I was raised. But I am 40 and now I don't care at all. I love my mom. I know she did her best and I appreciate what she did. I do think she could have reacted better, but I'm at the point in my life where my thoughts around parenting are how *I* should parent.

Different poster here. There is not just one PP who thinks OP might be off base with their response.

When I say things like, "parents should practice empathic listening and show their child that they care about their child's feelings, regardless of how old their child is," I mean "I should practice empathic listening and show my child that I care about their feelings." I'm not thinking much about commenters here or OP, and not at all about my own mom. I'm thinking about general principals I apply to myself.

No, I don't have an adult child. But have I been chastised by my child's therapist for doing something wrong, even though I was doing my absolute best and what I was doing was by no means abuse? Yes, yes I have. My child's therapist basically said that I, a victim of childhood trauma and all-around anxious individual, had to be cool as a cucumber, pretty much all the time, because my anxious reaction to things were messing up my child. There was literally nothing more difficult she could have asked of me, and I honestly thought it was pretty unfair that my options were to change my very nature or traumatize my child.

I did change and become more calm, but not before I did some damage. I didn't know it, but my child is autistic. She has very mild PTSD from my parenting, even though the mistakes I made were things like walking to the other side of the room and screaming into my hands when frustrated, as opposed to yelling in her face.

I wouldn't exactly say that it was my fault that I parented in a way that was harmful to my child. I didn't know she was autistic. It was hard for me to be calm because I have my own issues--my mom was completely verbally abusive and neglectful to me. I found some really great parenting books and did my best to do everything right. And now that I know what to do differently, I do better. But none of that changes the fact that I did things that caused my child harm. I own that. And when my daughter talks to me about it (which is rare, but it happens), I don't talk about how I didn't know, or how hard I tried, or how I had a childhood that was way worse than hers. I just let her know that I am sorry and I wish I had done things differently and I'll do whatever I can to help her. She's 17 and I'm not going to stop doing this a year from now.

OK, and good for you. But OP never said she told her kid, “look what I did for you.” OP was venting to us. We still have no idea what she told her kid—whether she said that or not. Whether she made a strings-free apology or not. All this “surmising” from one or more posters that OP must be a terrible mom, based on what she said in an anonymous vent on an anonymous board, is just weird.

OP here. I did apologize to him for everything that hurt him. I said it was not intentional to hurt him. My marriage was not ideal, we didn't hide our fighting from the kids- we both have hot tempers and were stressed out when our kids were little. We didn't fight to hurt the kids. We stayed married because we didn't want to hurt the kids. We didn't know better at the time. We took our kids to church, not to hurt ds. Homeschooled because the publics were not good/rough. Pushed DS to go to college for the opportunity to learn and grow. None of this was easy BTW. Other than apologizing, I can't fix him or change the past.

Do you even care that your child is struggling enough to be in therapy? Wow.

We care a lot. He has struggled as a adult with relationships, jobs, money. He also is into guns which is another aspect of his life that concerns us.

wtaf. yet you are focused on how he is being so unfair to you, instead of, oh I don’t know, offering to go to therapy with him? I don’t know exactly what happened in your family, but you need to step up and be an adult now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

You have no idea what OP said to her child because all she’s told us is that she apologized. Really, you need to let this go and find peace for yourself in ways that are real.

She said she apologized “if” she caused harm. OP’s words. Strange that you disregard them when inconvenient to your position.

+1,000,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Has she acknowledged to her son that her choices were poor? OP? What did you say in your apology?

What I find interesting is that OP is sort of willing to acknowledge that some of her choices might have been wrong or harmful. But what she's really demanding is exactly how her son process that history -- she wants to control how he thinks and acts about it. She cannot accept that he has his own point of view. She believes that because she apologized that is "enough," because she tried her hardest and her son was "challenging." In short - really not a fruitful way to have a relationship.

Why can't that be true? She did her best. Her son was challenging. Have you REALLY not known any challenging kids? Really? Not talking about you for a second -- -- but seriously, you have never known a challenging child? A neighbor, your kids' classmates, a neighbor, a niece of nephew -- none?? They do exist. Some children are difficult. It's not wrong to say it like it is.

Of course I do. I have two challenging brothers, and what my parents did to them was awful. My parents would probably claim that I was challenging too (despite being NMFS and getting a huge college scholarship and being completely self-supporting from the minute I left home). Narcissistic/emotionally immature parents will always blame someone else.

So you are not willing to admit that some children are challenging.

My post literally said my brothers were challenging. Kids being challenging does not give parents license to do whatever they want and claim they never did anything wrong. It’s the opposite actually. And of course, syndromes like ODD are closely, closely linked to parenting style. My own child went through and extremely challenging phase and I got therapy to learn to parent him better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

You have no idea what OP said to her child because all she’s told us is that she apologized. Really, you need to let this go and find peace for yourself in ways that are real.

I’m truly curious why you think all DCUM posts need to give the OP such deference. You seem to think that we have draw all possible favorable inferences for OP otherwise we are just projecting. What exactly do you think the exercise is here?

I think these people have adult children like OP, not toddlers and so they see the big picture. With age comes wisdom.

My oldest is in college and I absolutely disagree with OP and her self-involved behavior (not that I, or amy of the PPs, need your approval to weigh in).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

That was a poor apology which is a big part of the problem.

What would a 'good' apology look like? Getting down on bended knee at DS feet and apologizing for everything DS didn't like about his upbringing?
Would that solidify DS's belief that his unhappiness is due to his parents choices and not his own? And that DS is not responsible for any of the problems he has in life? Psrents made the problems so they must fix them.

Getting down on bender knee? Your hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously. Why can’t OP apologize her poor choices, some of which she can now see are wrong. Why can’t she acknowledge that these choices hurt her child? Why does OP (and apparently you) need an apology need to come with a defense. There is not a person on this 30 page thread who disagrees that the adult must take of his own life at this point. Why do you continue to raise strawmen?

OP says she has apologized. She hasn’t told us how she did it or whether bended knees were involved. She has acknowledged here some of her poor choices. You’re ready to condemn her because she hasn’t painted a picture of abject self-abasement, but in fact we don’t know the details.

Your problem is equating any criticism of OP with "condeming" her, and any attempt to understand her child or see his point of view with "abject self-abasement." Which speaks volumes about your own ability to handle criticism, and hence puts your view of OP's situation into a certain light.

Exactly this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the parents who think it is unnecessary or messed up to listen to an adult child, validate feelings, etc. might not have great relationships in other realms of their lives? Unless you genuinely think that your relationship with adult children follows a different set of rules, it sounds like all this resistance to basic relationship principles--empathy, self-reflection, genuine care for how the other is feeling, non-defensiveness, etc--aren't something these posters see as valuable or are practiced with.

So maybe t's not a matter of how adults see their adult children, but rather how these commenters approach interpersonal relationships generally. Which shouldn't be surprising; most of us are bad at interpersonal relationships. They are hard.

The parent-child relationship is not like other relationships. The parent puts the child's needs first and the child is front and center in the parents' life. Other relationships don't demand that of us. That CANNOT last forever. But some kids never move on from being the center of the universe. They never see themselves as adults, just like their parents. They're stuck being needy children. Meanwhile the parents are exhausted from all the work of parenting the needy child.

In many relationships, people get caught up with “well what about all I have done for you?” You see this all the time in marriages. It’s like if someone does a lot for the other, they don’t get to point out how something hurt because that means they’re ungrateful. I see the same dynamic happening here. And if you want a good relationship , you can’t believe that your efforts to help the other person means their feelings don’t matter. So this isn’t about how relationships with adult children are different, it’s just lack of skill in relationships generally

DP. You don’t see that happening here because OP has admitted to specific things she regrets doing and she said she’s apologized. Whatever you’re projecting onto OP, just stop already and go deal with your own issues. Talk about inability to stop centering yourself….

When I say “here,” I mean in this discussion. One big objection commenters have to a parent apologizing to an adult child for their parenting is that the parent sacrificed a lot for their child. But you can do a lot for somebody and still make a mistake, even a big mistake, so how much you did for somebody isn’t actually relevant to that one specific issue the person wants to address.

Think about a mom who works part time who asks her husband with more help with the dishes, and is met with “you don’t understand how hard things are on me and you don’t appreciate the work I do to provide for the family.” That might be true but it’s not a helpful response.

Think about the mom who puts on an enormous spread for her DC's birthday and invites all of his friends and relatives, and then he says, "But you know I don't like cherries, and there were cherries on the ice cream." Some people are like that. They only feel what's wrong. Some people are content, same situation.

People are saying if you work your ass off for someone, you deserve a pass for the things you did BY MISTAKE that weren't exactly right. Not talking about abandonment or beatings or anything like that -- we're talking about CHOICES a parent made in good faith, that they thought were right for their child.

accidentally getting the wrong kind of ice cream is obviously a completely different scale from forcing your kid to homeschool, rigid religious expectations, college pressure, subjecting them to a high-conflict marriage.