New Year Eve's Coordinated Sexual Assault Attacks in Cologne

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

I agree.

As a woman and a civilized human, that should be the only point of discussion for this thread and one that people here, especially in pro-woman, liberal dcum, there should be unanimous agreement.

I cry for the handful of women and girls in those refugee camps, and worry if we are now seeing the beginning of a full scale decline of western womens rights.

+1 I've been active in this entire thread and this has been the point ive been making over and over again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

+1000. Thanks for mansplaining how women should view sexual assault, too. Just an "unwanted behavior". How about "criminal behavior"? Or, say, "violent behavior"? Those would be accurate.

I'd also use atrocious behavior. Immature behavior. Disrespectful behavior. Criminal behavior. Barbaric behavior.

Those are words I would use to describe these men'e behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just why I was reluctant to wade in. Obviously if the man is obviously groping her, women of all cultures fight back. But Western women tend to let go the casual brushing that could be accidental, giving the benefit of the doubt.

An Arab woman wouldn't give any benefit of the doubt--she'd cause a scene even for the mildest of contact that could be inappropriate. And her response could be wildly disproportionate by our standards, but no one would call her on that as it is her right to defend her honor however she sees fit.

My colleague's wife would have been arrested for what she did if it had happened here and undoubtedly charged with assault. She also likely would have been subject to a civil suit for the harm she inflicted.

I understand what you are saying and appreciate the distinction. However, saying that the onus is on western women to conform the expectations of these refugees is backwards. They are coming to a foreign counry, seeking "asylum". It is the refugees' responsibility to act properly, not for women to jealously guard their bodies from encroachment.

I agree with points both of you are making. But, I would like to point out that part of what is going on is not simply that these men are raised as incurable misogynists (something that I don't believe is even true for the most part), but that they also get the message that Western women are complete sluts. So, the casual brushing that is ignored just reinforces that belief. That is not to suggest that the onus is on Western women to change, but just to offer an explanation. The men still need to change their behavior (and get a more realistic view of sexual mores).

Also, while I agree with the poster who had personal experience in the Middle East, based on my own experience in the region, I would add that what she is saying does not necessarily apply when there are huge power imbalances. In the case of Sri Lankan or Filipino maids, for instance, it can often be open season.

It is not for the women to change their behavior for these men. They are in host countries with new mores. Shape up or ship out. If they were not assimilated prior to this they should not have been let in.

And to add to the above, that explanation, is completely not acceptable at all. Just because innocuous behaviors by women in Western countries means they're viewed as sluts by these men, does not mean we should allow these men who have these views into those countries to prey on these women. It may be understandable, but absolutely totally NOT acceptable.

I think there are options between closing the door completely and allowing them to pretty on women. But, I expect trying to have such a nuanced conversation with you is futile.

One knows an debate has petered out when the opposing party starts insulting the other party's intellect such as "nuanced is futile" or "disoriented" instead of focusing on the points made.

Debate is also furtile when the PP says there are options but fails to provide any as an attempt to achieve power in the debate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

So what you are saying is that you are okay with them sexually assaulting German women, but not the women in the refuge camps?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

I disagree. You better enter your host country n your BEST behavior!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

So what you are saying is that you are okay with them sexually assaulting German women, but not the women in the refuge camps?

What I am saying, explicitly, is that I do not believe groping German women should be a death sentence. What is happening to the women in the refugee camps is going much farther than sexual assault, including frequent rapes, forced prostitution, and worse. I don't know how to respond to that, and I'm not in charge, so I don't have to know.

[Anonymous]

Is it really a death sentence?

Thousands upon thousands of young men who left their wives, sisters and mothers behind. It can't be that bad if most of their women stayed behind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

Sexual assault IS a "horrific" crime, at least in civilized society. Why, oh why do you believe otherwise? Please do tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

So what you are saying is that you are okay with them sexually assaulting German women, but not the women in the refuge camps?

+1 what kind of racist discriminatory bs is that. Those women had their breasts gropes, were bruised, had their underwear torn away, their genitals do fled, but somehow their victimization is less? Any refugee who does not appreciate leaving the cesspool he fled behind to be on his best behavior to the women in his host county can go back and burn. And don't make light of groping, it can be an incredibly traumatizing experience. I know because it happened to me.

[Anonymous]

At a very base level these men knew they were committing something wrong, they viewed the women they violated as deserving it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

There should be NO except.
You grope women - no asylum for you!

Some of these refugees are fleeing terrible places where they legitimately fear death, injury, and persecution. Behaving badly in their country of sanctuary is not ideal, but "groping women" should not be a death sentence.

However, if it turns out that some of these men who groped German women are involved in the truly horrific conditions at some of the refugee camps, I would have no qualms about sending them back. Legally, I don't know much about European asylum law, so I don't know if those crimes would affect their status.

I disagree. You better enter your host country n your BEST behavior!!!

+1 this makes me so mad. I question that poster if he or she or the women in his or her life were surrounded by a group of men and grabbed and groped and let's use the word sexually assaulted whether he or she would be so sanguine about groping. Frankly, shame on that poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it really a death sentence?

Thousands upon thousands of young men who left their wives, sisters and mothers behind. It can't be that bad if most of their women stayed behind.

I have found reports ranging from 10000 to over significantly 100000 executed by ISIS. It seems we don't know, but they've killed a lot of people.