New Year Eve's Coordinated Sexual Assault Attacks in Cologne

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

+1000. Thanks for mansplaining how women should view sexual assault, too. Just an "unwanted behavior". How about "criminal behavior"? Or, say, "violent behavior"? Those would be accurate.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

There is always someone who wants to miss the big picture and nitpick. Given that you are not "super-sensitive", you probably didn't pick up that used "unwanted behavior" because I was including behaviors beyond sexual assault. I once had a guest who was new to the US who didn't know that we flush toilet paper. After finding some smelly deposits in the bathroom trash can, I discussed that particular unwanted behavior with him. That could also be covered in a class.

But, please proceed with your outrage. I wouldn't want you to be distracted by a larger point.

Wow. Different poster here, but you diminished sexual assault and now want to accuse people who called you on it of "nitpicking". Amazingly obtuse. Maybe you're missing the larger picture in a situation where the very problem is the lack of recognition that this is serious.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

+1000. Thanks for mansplaining how women should view sexual assault, too. Just an "unwanted behavior". How about "criminal behavior"? Or, say, "violent behavior"? Those would be accurate.

Fuck you. Learn to read before you get around to insults. At no point did I say anything about how women should view sexual assault. I merely discussed options for addressing it. If only women can discuss women's issues and the problem in this instance is men, by your logic, only men should be discussing it. Are you trying to "womansplain" why men are engaging in criminal behavior (which is what I actually called this in an earlier tweet)?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not PP. You're probably a good person, I think, so no outrage from me tonight. But I notice you seem to understand nuance a lot more when we are talking about discrimination or violence by men against women, as opposed to discrimination or violence by whites or Christians against blacks or Muslims. I'm guessing you disagree?

I try to understand nuance wherever humans are concerned. I am not a good/evil type of guy. I think all of us have our flaws and none of us are perfect. I think I can find good in everyone. I could probably find bad as well, but I don't make much of an effort so I don't really know. I have posted here before about what I consider the legitimate concerns among poor white people that they are being left behind. I think minorities and immigrants (and women in some cases) make easy -- if inaccurate -- targets for their anger. I don't agree with their positions on such matters, but I understand. You can decide whether or not that is nuance.

Then understand this nuance: even those of us who agree with you that this shouldn't mean closing the door on asylum seekers are disturbed by your emphasis on the women's role in failing to aggressively fight of "brushing" and in calling sexual assault "unwanted behavior" and analogous to improper use of toilet paper. Or is that kind of nuance something you don't care to accept?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

+1000. Thanks for mansplaining how women should view sexual assault, too. Just an "unwanted behavior". How about "criminal behavior"? Or, say, "violent behavior"? Those would be accurate.

Fuck you. Learn to read before you get around to insults. At no point did I say anything about how women should view sexual assault. I merely discussed options for addressing it. If only women can discuss women's issues and the problem in this instance is men, by your logic, only men should be discussing it. Are you trying to "womansplain" why men are engaging in criminal behavior (which is what I actually called this in an earlier tweet)?

Nice. So when women find your tone arrogant and dismissive you tell them to fuck themselves. I see why you are downplaying this.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

There is always someone who wants to miss the big picture and nitpick. Given that you are not "super-sensitive", you probably didn't pick up that used "unwanted behavior" because I was including behaviors beyond sexual assault. I once had a guest who was new to the US who didn't know that we flush toilet paper. After finding some smelly deposits in the bathroom trash can, I discussed that particular unwanted behavior with him. That could also be covered in a class.

But, please proceed with your outrage. I wouldn't want you to be distracted by a larger point.

Wow. Different poster here, but you diminished sexual assault and now want to accuse people who called you on it of "nitpicking". Amazingly obtuse. Maybe you're missing the larger picture in a situation where the very problem is the lack of recognition that this is serious.

As I said before, fuck you. Obtuseness is completely ignoring the big picture in order to pick a fight over minutia.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

+1000. Thanks for mansplaining how women should view sexual assault, too. Just an "unwanted behavior". How about "criminal behavior"? Or, say, "violent behavior"? Those would be accurate.

Fuck you. Learn to read before you get around to insults. At no point did I say anything about how women should view sexual assault. I merely discussed options for addressing it. If only women can discuss women's issues and the problem in this instance is men, by your logic, only men should be discussing it. Are you trying to "womansplain" why men are engaging in criminal behavior (which is what I actually called this in an earlier tweet)?

The only insult is your obvious one. Read your own post. At least a couple of us read it as (intentionally or not) dismissive and downplaying. And (to respond to one of your silly insults), my reading skills are great, thanks.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

There is always someone who wants to miss the big picture and nitpick. Given that you are not "super-sensitive", you probably didn't pick up that used "unwanted behavior" because I was including behaviors beyond sexual assault. I once had a guest who was new to the US who didn't know that we flush toilet paper. After finding some smelly deposits in the bathroom trash can, I discussed that particular unwanted behavior with him. That could also be covered in a class.

But, please proceed with your outrage. I wouldn't want you to be distracted by a larger point.

Wow. Different poster here, but you diminished sexual assault and now want to accuse people who called you on it of "nitpicking". Amazingly obtuse. Maybe you're missing the larger picture in a situation where the very problem is the lack of recognition that this is serious.

As I said before, fuck you. Obtuseness is completely ignoring the big picture in order to pick a fight over minutia.

You know what? Some of us don't find the lack of seriousness with which some people treat sexual assault as "minutia". And you can insult me all you want. You've lost all credibility with me.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not PP. You're probably a good person, I think, so no outrage from me tonight. But I notice you seem to understand nuance a lot more when we are talking about discrimination or violence by men against women, as opposed to discrimination or violence by whites or Christians against blacks or Muslims. I'm guessing you disagree?

I try to understand nuance wherever humans are concerned. I am not a good/evil type of guy. I think all of us have our flaws and none of us are perfect. I think I can find good in everyone. I could probably find bad as well, but I don't make much of an effort so I don't really know. I have posted here before about what I consider the legitimate concerns among poor white people that they are being left behind. I think minorities and immigrants (and women in some cases) make easy -- if inaccurate -- targets for their anger. I don't agree with their positions on such matters, but I understand. You can decide whether or not that is nuance.

Then understand this nuance: even those of us who agree with you that this shouldn't mean closing the door on asylum seekers are disturbed by your emphasis on the women's role in failing to aggressively fight of "brushing" and in calling sexual assault "unwanted behavior" and analogous to improper use of toilet paper. Or is that kind of nuance something you don't care to accept?

I have never emphasized the women's role in failing to aggressively fight the "brushing". Another poster brought that up and I added to the conversation. I stressed that the responsibility was with the men. I didn't call "sexual assault" "unwanted behavior". Possibly I didn't clearly say what I was trying to say given the number of posters upset about that, but -- as I've explained -- I was referring to behaviors that go beyond sexual assault. I clearly say in that same paragraph that there should be "other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation". If you go back through my posts from tonight, I described what occurred in Cologne as crimes.

[Anonymous]

Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

There is always someone who wants to miss the big picture and nitpick. Given that you are not "super-sensitive", you probably didn't pick up that used "unwanted behavior" because I was including behaviors beyond sexual assault. I once had a guest who was new to the US who didn't know that we flush toilet paper. After finding some smelly deposits in the bathroom trash can, I discussed that particular unwanted behavior with him. That could also be covered in a class.

But, please proceed with your outrage. I wouldn't want you to be distracted by a larger point.

Wow. Different poster here, but you diminished sexual assault and now want to accuse people who called you on it of "nitpicking". Amazingly obtuse. Maybe you're missing the larger picture in a situation where the very problem is the lack of recognition that this is serious.

As I said before, fuck you. Obtuseness is completely ignoring the big picture in order to pick a fight over minutia.

You know what? Some of us don't find the lack of seriousness with which some people treat sexual assault as "minutia". And you can insult me all you want. You've lost all credibility with me.

You know, my credibility with you has never been one of my primary concerns. Or a secondary concern for that matter. I have plenty of experience with people who only want to fight and don't want to discuss anything. I think I am treating sexual assault far more seriously than you are. All you are doing picking fights. How does that help anything?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Jeff, when you start hurling vulgarities at a whole bunch of different women that are genuinely very offended and distressed at what you said, and who have not said the same vulgarities and some who even apologized to you earlier when you complained of being picked on, it's time to reconsider and at least try to see where they are coming from. Throwing f bombs is just a new low level.

No it was not "a whole bunch of different women". It was one poster -- apparently female -- who attacked me twice and who was clearly seeking a fight. I've been trying to see where a lot of different posters (I never know their sex for sure) are coming from. There are even women who are reluctant to join this thread because of the reactions any opinion that is a little bit different provokes. A man is an easy target. Instead of responding to ideas I am presenting, just pick a phrase that doesn't meet your approval. That's the easy way of avoiding a discussion and "winning" a debate. Of course that pisses me off.

[Anonymous]

We seem to be getting far away from the issue of the cultural and political background to this incident and its implications.

[Anonymous]

After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:After post 22:33 on page 29, there's not much more to be said.

The treatment of German women by the asylum-seekers is deplorable, and possibly/probably grounds for denial of asylum except in exceptional circumstances. The treatment of refugee women by refugee men is even worse.

I agree.

As a woman and a civilized human, that should be the only point of discussion for this thread and one that people here, especially in pro-woman, liberal dcum, there should be unanimous agreement.

I cry for the handful of women and girls in those refugee camps, and worry if we are now seeing the beginning of a full scale decline of western womens rights.