The impossiblity of mothering

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to all who posted here. There's a lot for me to digest and I'll try to respond later.

For now, any advice on how to deal with this kid in the moment? I am absolutely livid in his presence. I confiscated something important to him while he was at school, and when he came home he was shocked, then cried, then said, "Why did you do this to me?" etc. Then when he had calmed down and I told him that what he had done was serious and I was going to extremes to correct this ongoing behavior -- YEARS of it -- because nothing has gotten through to him, he gave me another reason why what he did was not as bad as all that, in fact it was actually okay because of blah blah blah and blah. Steam started coming out of my ears. I said, I promise you you are not going to be the same person after this is over as you were last week. You will be a changed man -- I guarantee it. Yikes.

I realize after reading the posts from PP's whose kids sound similar, and also the PP who said he was like that as a kid, that he may need therapy and/or or medication and will try to address that, too. Any advice on how to move forward in slow increments would be appreciated. Just how to establish some kind of appropriate behavior (for me) while I work on what to do. I'm seriously furious.

Thanks again.

OP you're abusing this child. Get help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again -- to the poster who suggested food allergies -- he does in fact have food allergies that deeply affect his personality. One of the ongoing issues is that he eats food he shouldn't, turns into a monster, lies about it, says he's sorry then does it again. He has zero discipline and I can't be there 24-7. This is a MAJOR factor in this scenario, so kuddos to you for guessing that.

That was me. I will tell you that when we succeeded in elimination, we had a different child. It helped to educate him about the cause and effect in the moments of slip ups. Not getting mad in the moment, but after the calm down, talking about what he ate, when, and see how he felt after that, see the problems it causes, and how he feels now, and maybe lets try again to avoid the foods, etc. We did "food and mood" diaries for a while, and that helped him learn. It was a long haul. He's older now, but I remember in the teen years overhearing a bit of peer pressure from his friends to try alcohol, and he said something like, "if you saw me after I ate ____, you would know why I'm never going to try something intended to mess with my moods." That almost made all the struggles of his youth pay off. A little silver lining.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again -- to the poster who suggested food allergies -- he does in fact have food allergies that deeply affect his personality. One of the ongoing issues is that he eats food he shouldn't, turns into a monster, lies about it, says he's sorry then does it again. He has zero discipline and I can't be there 24-7. This is a MAJOR factor in this scenario, so kuddos to you for guessing that.

Re him having zero discipline. Has he been evaluated for ADHD? Kids who have ADHD inattentive subtype are often overlooked because they're not hyper. Kids with ADHD often seem defiant. Ask if your pediatrician would diagnose ADHD or refer you to a psychiatrist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me preface this by saying I'm a single mom, so I can't divvy up the various aspects of parenting.

My concept of 'mothering' is nurturing, loving, being accepting, teaching how to be a good person in the world, teaching how to grow into a happy adult, etc. Also providing for their food, clothing, shelter, etc, which I enjoy. That's what I signed on for. I have a hard time with being the disciplinarian but I accept that I have to do it, and I do. I'm just having a really hard time figuring out how to do both of those things at once -- to be the disciplinarian and also be loving and warm and 'there for you no matter what,' nurturing a good bond, etc.

One of my kids has never been phased with any punishments, anger, consequences natural or imposed by me, loss of privileges, meetings with teachers -- nothing phases him. Since he was old enough for a 'time out' he has made it clear that any consequence is just the price he has to pay to do or get what he wants, and in addition to that, he feels sorry for himself for having them instead of sorry for what he did. Talking means nothing -- I can see he's either waiting for me to stop talking about it, or pretending to be sorry so we can all move on. He's like a con artist. He has no respect for being the kind of person I am trying to teach my kids to be. I love this kid and have gone to bat for him multiple times over the years in various settings, and he knows I'm in his corner no matter what. However, I no longer think that is helping him be a good person. It hasn't helped in any way to give him my undying devotion and commitment.

This kid crossed a line, and I crossed a line in my response to what he did. I have forgiven him so many times I just can't do it anymore. I feel like I have to let go of my warm fuzzy ideas of being a mother, completely and totally, to keep this kid out of jail when he grows up.

Seems like a sad choice.....

I am one of five kids, and my mother was a tough cookie. I know that she loved us and really did so much for us throughout our lives. She was really a great mom.

HOWEVER. We all knew that if we did something really wrong, she would be there with the warden locking our jail cell. She would always be our mom, but we knew that if he did something really wrong, she was not going to step in and save us from consequences.

I'm not sure how she instilled this in us, but I feel from what you say above that maybe in your desire to be nurturing you give him the impression that consequences aren't that serious and you will rescue him when he really gets in trouble. I think you might want to examine more closely how you convey these messages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

He stole money from a sibling. Kid is old enough to know stealing is wrong, WTF. But it wasn't just the money -- we're talking about a small amount, but it was a gift from a special relative so it was like a keepsake that one of my other DCs wanted to keep as a souvenir, not as money. It can't be replaced. He had asked again and again if he could borrow, use and replace, the money and has been told no. We're talking a year and a half of asking and being told no. We're not talking about a lot of money either -- but the idea that he was told no for over a year, did it anyway knowing it would hurt his sibling's feelings (and mine) and could not be replaced with any other money, and then lied about having done it, then said his sibling deserved it, then said it was no big deal, "I already said I'm sorry," etc etc on and on and on and on -- I just lost it. This is how he operates, so it may not seem like a big deal, but it was the last straw for me. He had already lost screens for something else (and yes he has incentives -- he was told that screens were no longer considered a right, that if he wanted screens he had to earn them back, etc -- no impact). Plus he's been begging me for a phone, so I have been telling him for months that if he shows me he can be trusted he'll earn a phone, but he keeps saying he will and then doing dishonest shit like this.

I told him our phone deal was off. I was no longer going to be negotiating in good faith with someone who lies right to my face. I told him he was grounded for a month. I told him he would be replacing the money he took three-fold. I was super pissed (not talking to him in a soft voice, LOL). Nothing but self-pity and denial in response. Finally I said he sucked as a human being, that he wasn't doing any of the things he's been told to do to be a good person (or avoiding the things he's been told over and over to avoid to not be a bad person, like lying oamd stealing, again WTF) and that I was done. Just finished, and that if he was going to steal from family members, then he'd better watch his own back, too. Later he said he hadn't meant what he said, and I said "I did."

Not my finest moment as a mom, clearly. I admit that. I just lost it. I'm just completely and totally done operating in good faith with this kid and knowing he is going to punch me in the gut (emotionally) again and again and again.

OP, in all seriousness in addition to counseling you may want to look into parent classes. Using this type of language with your child is never OK and exacerbating his already significant troubles. Expecting a 12 year old to operate in good faith when they have repeated demonstrated that they will not do this is on you as much as him.

[Anonymous]

I’m a single mom to a kid like this, and it is SO HARD. I understand you on the dichotomy between the nurturing, and the discipline too - it’s hard. And as they get older it’s really hard to let go of the reins too. My son is 11, so a little younger, but I’ve had to work really really hard the last year or so to make sure that we have positive interactions every single day. That was easy when I still read to him at night, but he doesn’t want to do that anymore. So I had to find other ways. What does he enjoy? Does he have positive outlets for his energy? Like sports or clubs? If he’s angry about not having his father around can you apply with big brothers or something similar to try and find him a positive role model? It’s not a dad, but it’s someone who isn’t you and who can hold him accountable but also be a mentor.

I’ve also had to choose my battles wisely, and give him autonomy in places I didn’t think I could, which has worked better than I expected.

As for how to act myself? I’m in therapy, and I’ve started meditating every night using the app Calm (there are so many, I tried a bunch and liked that one best - but pick one YOU like) and it’s helped me a lot with being “in the present”. Therapy has helped me figure out how to not be so invested in single interactions, and to see the places my son is succeeding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, I have an 8 year like this. As much as he is a loving, caring, and personable child, he can push a saint over the line. Our last major issue was him not putting his clean clothes away. He went would hide them and lie about no matter how many times I caught him. His older brother (whom he loves) tried to encourage, and even bribe him. It went on for months. It got out of hand. I had threatened to take all of his toys away and finally had to follow through. I took every last toy and privilege away. He would have to earn each toy/privilege back one by one, with his favorite toys being returned last. If he slipped up, he went back to no toys/privileges and we would start again. I can't begin to tell you how hard this was for everyone in the house. It sucked, but it was the only thing that finally worked. I tell you all of this to hopefully provide some hope, to tell you that kids need to know that you are serious, and that you have to find the consequence that works for your child.

omg. YOU need therapy too. all this over a chore? wtf is wrong with you?

It's not the chore -- if his mom told him to put his clothes away, he should put them away. The fact that he's putting more effort into NOT doing it than DOING it is telling -- re, it's not about the chore. OP here and I was meaning to respond to this post as well. We have something similar going on in terms of something my DC is also putting way more effort into not doing than it would take to just do it. He is alpha, and although this may (or may not) come in handy when he grows up, it doesn't work on a day-to-day basis when he's the freakin' kid. He can't move up, grow, take on more responsibility etc if he refuses to cooperate.

As I already posted, we crossed a line together and I feel really changed by what's happened. It's not one thing it's the last of a long line of things. I took drastic action yesterday, PP-with-the-kid-who-won't-put-away-his-clothes, and last night and this morning were eerily calm in our household. Too soon to see how long that will last but I appreciated reading your post.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like your son developed RAD. Reactive Attachment Disorder. These don't just happen. Did anyone these ever happen to your ds?

RAD and other attachment disorders occur when a child has been unable to consistently connect with a parent or primary caregiver. If a young child repeatedly feels abandoned, isolated, powerless, or uncared for—whatever the reason—they will learn that they can’t depend on others and that the world is a dangerous and frightening place.

This can happen for many reasons:

A baby cries and no one responds or offers comfort.
A baby is hungry or wet, and they aren’t attended to for hours.
No one looks at, talks to, or smiles at the baby, so the baby feels alone.
A young child gets attention only by acting out or displaying other extreme behaviors.
A young child or baby is mistreated or abused.
Sometimes the child’s needs are met and sometimes they aren’t. The child never knows what to expect.
The infant or young child is hospitalized or separated from their parents.
A baby or young child is moved from one caregiver to another (the result of adoption, foster care, or the loss of a parent, for example).
The parent is emotionally unavailable because of depression, illness, or substance abuse.

[Anonymous]

I just read your update. You are engaged in negative parenting in some of your examples. Does this child get hugs, kisses, love, holding him, knowing he is safe? RAD to the core!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to all who posted here. There's a lot for me to digest and I'll try to respond later.

For now, any advice on how to deal with this kid in the moment? I am absolutely livid in his presence. I confiscated something important to him while he was at school, and when he came home he was shocked, then cried, then said, "Why did you do this to me?" etc. Then when he had calmed down and I told him that what he had done was serious and I was going to extremes to correct this ongoing behavior -- YEARS of it -- because nothing has gotten through to him, he gave me another reason why what he did was not as bad as all that, in fact it was actually okay because of blah blah blah and blah. Steam started coming out of my ears. I said, I promise you you are not going to be the same person after this is over as you were last week. You will be a changed man -- I guarantee it. Yikes.

I realize after reading the posts from PP's whose kids sound similar, and also the PP who said he was like that as a kid, that he may need therapy and/or or medication and will try to address that, too. Any advice on how to move forward in slow increments would be appreciated. Just how to establish some kind of appropriate behavior (for me) while I work on what to do. I'm seriously furious.

Thanks again.

Call your pediatrician. Tell them you need a referral for a child psychologist. Call and get on wait lists. Then just chill out. You are overreacting due to frustration, but to be fair, you are the one who let things go on thins long. It's not like your kid is going to realize you guys need to go to a therapist.

[Anonymous]

You need to start loving this child. That's the bottom line. You are a jailer to him. He knows he is not getting love or security, and he gave up trying to get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would normally say there's something psychological at play...but you prefaced this whole thing by stating that you don't like discipline and you don't actually think it is part of mothering. Are you sure you have not created this problem by not exercising discipline properly? Before you do down the road of "this kid won't be fazed by punishment" I would think about taking a parenting class or get a parenting coach or similar to learn how to discipline properly.

And to all of you "I don't like discipline" parents - I hope you learn from this. Understand that your kids NEED and CRAVE discipline. Kids feel safe when YOU implement boundaries, and when you are consistent. implementing them. Kids feel safe when you do what you say you will do. Just the other day I was at a playgroup and an upset five year old came crying to his mom that Larla had broken his toy. He kept saying "I'm going to kick Larla! I'm going to kick Larla!" And his parents did nothing. It was so sad. He was desperate for a boundary and desperate for a parent to say "We don't kick." Discipline isn't a bad word, and I suspect that Op has created this issue by thinking that it is.

OP here. I do discipline my kids. My point is that it feels like a split -- the connected, warm relationship and the one that needs to mete out a consequence that is strong enough to make a difference. That's the point I'm at right now.

Kid is 12 to those who asked. Father is out of the picture.

What are the warm relationships aspects in regards to this child? How is the warm relationship manifested?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you need to get over the idea that your primary role is to be loving. Being a disciplinarian (TEACHING your kid) is equally important. My son is only 8 now but he sounds a lot like your kid. I'm disturbed that you've conclude he's "not good," as opposed to considering that you lack parenting skills. My son responds extremely well to incentives. I've long since given up the idealized notion that he should respond to softly spoken conversations about the values of being "kind" or whatever. All kids want what they want; that's normal.

I think he needs the opposite, loving. He needs boundaries too, but mostly loving. In most kids issues are caused by lack of something. Usually it is the attention they seek. Now, this kid doesn't have a dad, could be that op is not able to fill this particular need. She clearly works and has kids to take care of. Somethings gotta give. This child likely tried to get what he needs and after repeatedly failing, gave up. He has come to a conclusion that he will never get it and gave up.
To the money situation op, what did you offer your ds instead of the money present? Did you ds receive a present of equal value, equal in his mind?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole “punishments don’t matter” business can be a sign of ADHD.

This. I have a 14 yr old son and his father is not involved in his life. He was the same way before he was diagnosed with ADHD and started taking medication. I hate to say it but I secretly was happy when he started crying after being reprimanded for something he did. Before medication, he operated at 1000% speed so he acted the way you describe. He didn’t care, he just wanted you to stop talking, etc. The medication helped him slow waaaay down so she could actually think before acting and then benefit from discipline. I would start his pediatrician and go from there. Therapy might be in order.

I agree with this. My dd was on the way to this prior to starting her adhd med. I blame myself, for ears she lived in adhd fog and could not develop and see proper emotional actions and reactions. Therapist said that his is classic adhd, child can't interpret emotions so child fakes it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, I have an 8 year like this. As much as he is a loving, caring, and personable child, he can push a saint over the line. Our last major issue was him not putting his clean clothes away. He went would hide them and lie about no matter how many times I caught him. His older brother (whom he loves) tried to encourage, and even bribe him. It went on for months. It got out of hand. I had threatened to take all of his toys away and finally had to follow through. I took every last toy and privilege away. He would have to earn each toy/privilege back one by one, with his favorite toys being returned last. If he slipped up, he went back to no toys/privileges and we would start again. I can't begin to tell you how hard this was for everyone in the house. It sucked, but it was the only thing that finally worked. I tell you all of this to hopefully provide some hope, to tell you that kids need to know that you are serious, and that you have to find the consequence that works for your child.

omg. YOU need therapy too. all this over a chore? wtf is wrong with you?

It's not the chore -- if his mom told him to put his clothes away, he should put them away. The fact that he's putting more effort into NOT doing it than DOING it is telling -- re, it's not about the chore. OP here and I was meaning to respond to this post as well. We have something similar going on in terms of something my DC is also putting way more effort into not doing than it would take to just do it. He is alpha, and although this may (or may not) come in handy when he grows up, it doesn't work on a day-to-day basis when he's the freakin' kid. He can't move up, grow, take on more responsibility etc if he refuses to cooperate.

As I already posted, we crossed a line together and I feel really changed by what's happened. It's not one thing it's the last of a long line of things. I took drastic action yesterday, PP-with-the-kid-who-won't-put-away-his-clothes, and last night and this morning were eerily calm in our household. Too soon to see how long that will last but I appreciated reading your post.

OK OP, if you're unwilling to consider that your parenting style may have something to do with his behavior, I don't know what to tell you. You're speaking in incredibly harsh & dramatic terms about a child who, at the end of the day, didn't do something earth-shakingly bad. you need to get some perspective & support.