The impossiblity of mothering

[Anonymous]

I have a child just like you describe. Since the time he was little, he was unphased by punishments, timeouts or whatever. It was ok when he was young because he really didn't get into trouble and I could see he had a good heart. But, when he got older (mid teens), he developed mental health problems and later substance abuse issues. He is on his second round of residential treatment.

Anyway, one thing I wanted to say to you is don't discount the loss that your child may feel as a result of having an uninvolved father. That is one of the big issues that is driving my son. I think the people who suggested counseling are right - you should consider it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

He stole money from a sibling. Kid is old enough to know stealing is wrong, WTF. But it wasn't just the money -- we're talking about a small amount, but it was a gift from a special relative so it was like a keepsake that one of my other DCs wanted to keep as a souvenir, not as money. It can't be replaced. He had asked again and again if he could borrow, use and replace, the money and has been told no. We're talking a year and a half of asking and being told no. We're not talking about a lot of money either -- but the idea that he was told no for over a year, did it anyway knowing it would hurt his sibling's feelings (and mine) and could not be replaced with any other money, and then lied about having done it, then said his sibling deserved it, then said it was no big deal, "I already said I'm sorry," etc etc on and on and on and on -- I just lost it. This is how he operates, so it may not seem like a big deal, but it was the last straw for me. He had already lost screens for something else (and yes he has incentives -- he was told that screens were no longer considered a right, that if he wanted screens he had to earn them back, etc -- no impact). Plus he's been begging me for a phone, so I have been telling him for months that if he shows me he can be trusted he'll earn a phone, but he keeps saying he will and then doing dishonest shit like this.

I told him our phone deal was off. I was no longer going to be negotiating in good faith with someone who lies right to my face. I told him he was grounded for a month. I told him he would be replacing the money he took three-fold. I was super pissed (not talking to him in a soft voice, LOL). Nothing but self-pity and denial in response. Finally I said he sucked as a human being, that he wasn't doing any of the things he's been told to do to be a good person (or avoiding the things he's been told over and over to avoid to not be a bad person, like lying oamd stealing, again WTF) and that I was done. Just finished, and that if he was going to steal from family members, then he'd better watch his own back, too. Later he said he hadn't meant what he said, and I said "I did."

Not my finest moment as a mom, clearly. I admit that. I just lost it. I'm just completely and totally done operating in good faith with this kid and knowing he is going to punch me in the gut (emotionally) again and again and again.

13:04 here. Okay, this sounds extreme. I stole and lied too, but when I got caught, I got defensive and yelled and insulted, but really did know that I messed up (even if I'd NEVER fess up). If you genuinely think that he is not recognizing what he's doing is wrong or feeling remorse (even if he doesn't show it), then definitely get an evaluation. The stealing money part made me think drugs (my sister stole CONSTANTLY when she started using drugs as a young teen, and later ended up with a serious problem that has messed up her life forever), but even if that's not it, he DEFINITELY needs someone to talk to and needs to learn some skills.

Don't give up on him. We're human, we lose our temper and yell. That's 100% okay IMO. But apologize, let him see how much he truly hurt you, let him see how scared you are. If you want to cry, then cry. Show him that his shitty behavior impacts you in ways other than anger. Anger he can handle and has figured out how to tune out, so it's totally useless. You've threatened him enough with being a bad person (which is legit!), that he's tuning that out too. If I were you, I'd tell him you are scared for his future and you need to start family counseling TOGETHER and he needs to get an evaluation. Because you're scared and you love him. If he's a normal stubborn kid, he'll understand that. If he can't understand that, then he definitely needs that evaluation and therapy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The whole “punishments don’t matter” business can be a sign of ADHD.

This. I have a 14 yr old son and his father is not involved in his life. He was the same way before he was diagnosed with ADHD and started taking medication. I hate to say it but I secretly was happy when he started crying after being reprimanded for something he did. Before medication, he operated at 1000% speed so he acted the way you describe. He didn’t care, he just wanted you to stop talking, etc. The medication helped him slow waaaay down so she could actually think before acting and then benefit from discipline. I would start his pediatrician and go from there. Therapy might be in order.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a child just like you describe. Since the time he was little, he was unphased by punishments, timeouts or whatever. It was ok when he was young because he really didn't get into trouble and I could see he had a good heart. But, when he got older (mid teens), he developed mental health problems and later substance abuse issues. He is on his second round of residential treatment.

Anyway, one thing I wanted to say to you is don't discount the loss that your child may feel as a result of having an uninvolved father. That is one of the big issues that is driving my son. I think the people who suggested counseling are right - you should consider it.

Yes, he is pretty good at verbalizing that. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know what you're talking about, OP. One of my kids just feels sorry for himself when he gets in trouble instead of thinking about what he did.

I see parenting articles that say this is caused by authoritarian parenting. And I do enforce boundaries and punish. But talking to him doesn't do anything.

I don't have any answers.

Oh come on. How do YOU feel when you get in trouble? A little defensive and blaming at first, right? Nobody (adult or child) responds to getting in trouble perfectly. "Oh let me think about what I did and repent!" No. They react in concordance with their particular personalities, but always in somewhat self-centered ways. The angel child that reacts by crying hysterically when they get in trouble and begging for forgiveness is no less self-centered than the child who reacts by saying "big deal." Two different coping mechanisms; that's all.

Regardless of whether this is helpful to the OP, thank you for mentioning this, which should be mentioned more often!

11:39 here. Yes, I don't have high expectations for the reaction to getting in trouble. But DS also doesn't seem to learn, modify his behavior, stop doing the wrong thing.

He does have food intolerances, allergies, a metabolic disorder. And ADHD runs in the family.

Hugs, OP. Raising kids is hard, the hardest job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi, OP. I was that kid, I remember telling myself "punishments don't matter, just stay strong and wait it out." I was very smart, had ADHD, and had very authoritarian parents. Everything became a power struggle because their response to my stubbornness and provocation (which it was! Intentionally to get them mad!) was to double down and be stricter and harder. Which made me double down even more. It was awful and the teen years were REALLY bad. My kids are young still, but my first is very stubborn (once she decides NO, there is no amount of pressure or bribery that can get her to change her mind) and I decided long ago that I was not going to engage in the same power struggles that my parents did with me. I can't really speak to the teen years, but I highly recommend treating him as the logical person he is - the books recommended above are great with that, but may be designed for younger kids. Model good behaviors (being thoughtful, apologizing when you are in the wrong, etc.) and get him a psychological evaluation just in case. I am a normal, kind person now, but that's despite of my childhood, not because of it.

It would be helpful if you would provide specific examples, so we can get a sense of whether this is behavior in the normal range or not.

Thank you. I really appreciate this. See above....

Also wanted to add that he is definitely digging in his heels. That is him MO. I do talk to him logically A LOT which I'm starting to think is a mistake. I also apologize when I'm wrong, and basically constantly teach my kids how to be a good person by pointing it out, "We could really use the extra money they gave us by mistake but it would be wrong to keep it so we're returning it," etc. It's really important to me. Which is why his behavior really burns me up. It's like he's saying, "I choose my own rules of right and wrong, not the family's."

PP again. I responded already, but want to respond to this directly. You're doing the right thing, don't think that being harder or stricter will help. It absolutely won't. Plus your other child still needs that parenting, and you don't want to get in the business of treating your kids unequally. Is he explicitly saying "I choose my own rules?" If he's not, he may be (in a f**k you sort of way) to get a reaction in another few years. But right now, he's still so young. He acts like a (mature? adult? fully formed?) person, but his brain is still a child's. He doesn't fully understand consequences and doesn't fully see the big picture to understand how he's impacting things. I remember justifying bad behavior mentally because of reasons that were SUCH a child's understanding of the world - and this was probably at age 13 or 14. It's a really hard time with a kid like this.

I would start connecting those general rules you're teaching to the specific things he's doing or you want him to do. Actually put two and two together with "if then" and "like, therefore" statements, etc. He's justifying why that general rule doesn't apply to him, so spell it out so he can't ignore the counterargument he's not seeing or intentionally disregarding.

Two things I wish my parents would have done differently (beside parent fundamentally differently): (1) Medicate my ass! I NEEDED antidepressants and ADHD meds, but didn't get them until I went to college and got them myself. It made SUCH a difference. The early teen stubbornness and rebellion turned into serious depression and self-destructive behavior as I got older. I really wish I could have been on meds so I wasn't dealing with the brunt of all of that alone. (2) Don't let him feel alone. This attitude is (obviously) indicating he feels like he's different from everyone else. If he doesn't feel like you're an emotional support, that is so so lonely. Family counseling would have been great.

[Anonymous]

Therapy. And it’s “unfazed” in case you have to write this up for the shrink. You have to accept that maybe this is too big for you. Call someone. I’m doing it today for another kid and another reason.

[Anonymous]

Op, I have an 8 year like this. As much as he is a loving, caring, and personable child, he can push a saint over the line. Our last major issue was him not putting his clean clothes away. He went would hide them and lie about no matter how many times I caught him. His older brother (whom he loves) tried to encourage, and even bribe him. It went on for months. It got out of hand. I had threatened to take all of his toys away and finally had to follow through. I took every last toy and privilege away. He would have to earn each toy/privilege back one by one, with his favorite toys being returned last. If he slipped up, he went back to no toys/privileges and we would start again. I can't begin to tell you how hard this was for everyone in the house. It sucked, but it was the only thing that finally worked. I tell you all of this to hopefully provide some hope, to tell you that kids need to know that you are serious, and that you have to find the consequence that works for your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole “punishments don’t matter” business can be a sign of ADHD.

Thank you. I'll look into that.

I almost think he's just gotten used to getting in trouble. Like he doesn't understand that he can control whether or not he gets in trouble by controlling his behavior. Seems like something basic he is not understanding about the world.

So he's 12, you have a lot of concerns about his behavior, trouble controlling his behavior, and he's never been evaluated? School has never pushed for anything?

I'm a special needs mom so I acknowledge that evals and psychologists are just the norm to me, but OP, I think it's past time for you to consult with a professional. In your OP it sounds like you are throwing in the towel, but have you actually tried any professional help yet?

[Anonymous]

Thank you to all who posted here. There's a lot for me to digest and I'll try to respond later.

For now, any advice on how to deal with this kid in the moment? I am absolutely livid in his presence. I confiscated something important to him while he was at school, and when he came home he was shocked, then cried, then said, "Why did you do this to me?" etc. Then when he had calmed down and I told him that what he had done was serious and I was going to extremes to correct this ongoing behavior -- YEARS of it -- because nothing has gotten through to him, he gave me another reason why what he did was not as bad as all that, in fact it was actually okay because of blah blah blah and blah. Steam started coming out of my ears. I said, I promise you you are not going to be the same person after this is over as you were last week. You will be a changed man -- I guarantee it. Yikes.

I realize after reading the posts from PP's whose kids sound similar, and also the PP who said he was like that as a kid, that he may need therapy and/or or medication and will try to address that, too. Any advice on how to move forward in slow increments would be appreciated. Just how to establish some kind of appropriate behavior (for me) while I work on what to do. I'm seriously furious.

Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to all who posted here. There's a lot for me to digest and I'll try to respond later.

For now, any advice on how to deal with this kid in the moment? I am absolutely livid in his presence. I confiscated something important to him while he was at school, and when he came home he was shocked, then cried, then said, "Why did you do this to me?" etc. Then when he had calmed down and I told him that what he had done was serious and I was going to extremes to correct this ongoing behavior -- YEARS of it -- because nothing has gotten through to him, he gave me another reason why what he did was not as bad as all that, in fact it was actually okay because of blah blah blah and blah. Steam started coming out of my ears. I said, I promise you you are not going to be the same person after this is over as you were last week. You will be a changed man -- I guarantee it. Yikes.

I realize after reading the posts from PP's whose kids sound similar, and also the PP who said he was like that as a kid, that he may need therapy and/or or medication and will try to address that, too. Any advice on how to move forward in slow increments would be appreciated. Just how to establish some kind of appropriate behavior (for me) while I work on what to do. I'm seriously furious.

Thanks again.

OP. He gets being stubborn from you. Go.to.therapy. Both of you. You need help and so does he.

[Anonymous]

Hi Op, you didn’t scar him. He will be okay. I suggest therapy and an evaluation for him too. I also don’t think there is anything wrong with tough love. Obedience matters for many reasons, it’s not about control it’s about trusting authority that has rules to keep you safe. Like I’d you’re in a mine field and say, hey stand still. You don’t always have the time to explain why, and a child’s understanding is not conditional
On their expectation to obey. The understanding comes in time and in different ways for different people.

[Anonymous]

You need to get advice on techniques from a therapist or specialist that can consider all factors of your unique situation op

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, consider reading a book called Parenting with Love and Logic.

A lot of it is about logical / natural consequences.

Are you willing to share what line he crossed, and what the punishment was?

He stole money from a sibling. Kid is old enough to know stealing is wrong, WTF. But it wasn't just the money -- we're talking about a small amount, but it was a gift from a special relative so it was like a keepsake that one of my other DCs wanted to keep as a souvenir, not as money. It can't be replaced. He had asked again and again if he could borrow, use and replace, the money and has been told no. We're talking a year and a half of asking and being told no. We're not talking about a lot of money either -- but the idea that he was told no for over a year, did it anyway knowing it would hurt his sibling's feelings (and mine) and could not be replaced with any other money, and then lied about having done it, then said his sibling deserved it, then said it was no big deal, "I already said I'm sorry," etc etc on and on and on and on -- I just lost it. This is how he operates, so it may not seem like a big deal, but it was the last straw for me. He had already lost screens for something else (and yes he has incentives -- he was told that screens were no longer considered a right, that if he wanted screens he had to earn them back, etc -- no impact). Plus he's been begging me for a phone, so I have been telling him for months that if he shows me he can be trusted he'll earn a phone, but he keeps saying he will and then doing dishonest shit like this.

I told him our phone deal was off. I was no longer going to be negotiating in good faith with someone who lies right to my face. I told him he was grounded for a month. I told him he would be replacing the money he took three-fold. I was super pissed (not talking to him in a soft voice, LOL). Nothing but self-pity and denial in response. Finally I said he sucked as a human being, that he wasn't doing any of the things he's been told to do to be a good person (or avoiding the things he's been told over and over to avoid to not be a bad person, like lying oamd stealing, again WTF) and that I was done. Just finished, and that if he was going to steal from family members, then he'd better watch his own back, too. Later he said he hadn't meant what he said, and I said "I did."

Not my finest moment as a mom, clearly. I admit that. I just lost it. I'm just completely and totally done operating in good faith with this kid and knowing he is going to punch me in the gut (emotionally) again and again and again.

wow. please get therapy (for you) so you can separate out your own emotional reactions and act like an adult. he's a child (your child) not your friend or mother. you shouldn't be so impacted by something that is surely upsetting, but within the realm of normal "bad" behavior. I was expecting you to say something like that he seriously hurt his sibling, did drugs, etc etc. you told your son to "watch his own back" and then you just DOUBLED DOWN when he tried to apologize? you need some serious perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, I have an 8 year like this. As much as he is a loving, caring, and personable child, he can push a saint over the line. Our last major issue was him not putting his clean clothes away. He went would hide them and lie about no matter how many times I caught him. His older brother (whom he loves) tried to encourage, and even bribe him. It went on for months. It got out of hand. I had threatened to take all of his toys away and finally had to follow through. I took every last toy and privilege away. He would have to earn each toy/privilege back one by one, with his favorite toys being returned last. If he slipped up, he went back to no toys/privileges and we would start again. I can't begin to tell you how hard this was for everyone in the house. It sucked, but it was the only thing that finally worked. I tell you all of this to hopefully provide some hope, to tell you that kids need to know that you are serious, and that you have to find the consequence that works for your child.

omg. YOU need therapy too. all this over a chore? wtf is wrong with you?