Jewish life in an interfaith marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You missed the point. I'm offensively irreverent at times, but I wouldn't dismiss my niece's First Communion as insignificant and unworthy of my time and attention. But mostly, that would be out of respect to the kid.
Agreed though, that you can't raise a culturally Jewish kid as a Christian. But I think OP has the message, so let's not beat up on her.

its getting confusing because posters are jumping back and forth between missing the 1st communion and the treating christianity as a joke (which I read as making jokes about Jesus, but not having been present, cannot say for sure)

I do not know why the family missed the first communion - I dont know much about first communions in general, I dont know about the nature of the "culturally Jewish" family that sent the invite, and I dont know the family that didnt show. I have had intermarried relatives (my cousin, but she got divorced - I did attend the wedding - no kids, no first communions) but I could imagine being uncomfortable with a relative who was christian and ostentatiously blended that with Judaism, in a way I might find more offensive than Christianity (whose art, music, and history interest me)

But I do know that Jews make fun of Christianity, have for hundreds of years, and that its a very understandable, in some ways a very healthy way to deal with their situation. The situation may be different now (though there are still issues living in a christian country esp for observant jews) but Im hardly ready to give up the humor as a way of dealig with things, including minority status (I have instead tried to use that heritage to gain insight into how other minorities deal with outsider status). And I suggest that before people think of themselves as culturally Jewish Christians, they might conside exactly what they mean by culturally Jewish - assuming jews, even unassimilated Jews, are just gentiles who spin dreidels may lead to misunderstandings, in some instances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been very difficult to raise culturally Jewish but religiously Christian children amidst Jewish cousins. The cousins don't see Christianity as equal or even valid. They act as though Christian beliefs and practices are a big joke. My younger DD has celebrated with all of her cousins when they reached b'nai mitzvah age, but not a single one attended her First Communion. She was very hurt.

In Jewish law as held by the Orthodox (at least many) its actually a sin to enter a church. C Judaism modifies this for the sake of peace between communities, but be aware that Christianity is historically the dominant faith of Western Civilization, it pervades traditional art and literature, it is connected for many Jews with memories of past persecutin (sometimes quite directly - Easter pogroms, his blood is on our head, that sort of thing) and we are still proselytized in this day and age.

Judaism may be quaint to Christians, or even a way to connect with Jesus, but Christianity is not like that to most Jews.

I can understand respecting that some Jews will not/can not enter a church, but arguing that they her family is not participating in her child's Christian events because of years of persecution is stretching it. PP said the cousins see her child's faith as a joke, not a as a scary reminder of oppression.

In addition, the cousins and their parents are not Orthodox. I don't think the family has had an Orthodox member in a century or more. Not even Conservadox or Modern Orthodox. The cousins and parents are largely Reform. The grandparents are Conservative. It would just be nice to see them offer the same support for her rites of passage as we have for theirs. Not even an apology or word of regret to soften her disappoinment. I can bet my life that we'd never hear the end of it if she skipped even one of their b'nai mitzvahs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In addition, the cousins and their parents are not Orthodox. I don't think the family has had an Orthodox member in a century or more. Not even Conservadox or Modern Orthodox. The cousins and parents are largely Reform. The grandparents are Conservative. It would just be nice to see them offer the same support for her rites of passage as we have for theirs. Not even an apology or word of regret to soften her disappoinment. I can bet my life that we'd never hear the end of it if she skipped even one of their b'nai mitzvahs.

I was raised Reform, I am now Conservative (would you consider me Conservadox? I observe some degree of kashrut but I also believe in ordaining gay rabbis) and my brother has always been Reform. Once at a museum he was visibly uncomfortable with baroque paintings that had lots of images of bleeding jesus on the cross, so we quickly zipped over to abstract expressionists. I find this somewhat amusing. Do not assume people are assimilated because they are Reform.

Again I do not know why they did not send regrets - perhaps they did not how to express what they were feeling, and were embarassed, and thought it best to say nothing. Or maybe they have aspergers. Whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all of the replies. I'm now thinking that Sunday school is probably not a good bet for us (I didn't fully grasp how big of a commitment it is), but will definitely look into the other options discussed. Our kid hasn't been born yet, so we still have a few years to go before he/she is old enough to participate. We're probably not going to have DC baptized or mitzvahed but want him/her to feel comfortable in both traditions; if DC wants to commit to one or the other we'd definitely be supportive of that. Thanks again!

The problem, OP, is that Judaism is not a "tradition." It is a religion. It's more than spinning a dreidel or eating latkes. If that's want you want your kids to know, that's just fine. But if you want them to go to Sunday School or are actually thinking of a Bar Mitzvah, really OP, approaching it as a "tradition" is insulting. It's a faith to us. It's not something you get to decide one year you want your kids to "participate" in.

And the notion that your child can experience both "traditions" and then commit to one? You are basically saying to the child, Christ is the Messiah. No wait, no Messiah. You choose, kid. Is that something you do for your child is any other sphere of life? Tell them two opposing viewpoints in conflict and tell them to commit when they are ready?

What is a "faith" to you can be a "tradition" to others just as a hamburger can be a special treat to one person, an everyday meal to another or a piece of unappetizing ground up dead animal flesh to another.

There is not one right way to view religions or to practice them.

That's not the point. Yes, there is no one "Right" way to be religious. But you can't up and decide one day to have a Bar Mitzvah. It's just not like that.

[Anonymous]

I am Jewish and have never heard of this prohibition on going into churches. Is that in the Torah?? I doubt it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all of the replies. I'm now thinking that Sunday school is probably not a good bet for us (I didn't fully grasp how big of a commitment it is), but will definitely look into the other options discussed. Our kid hasn't been born yet, so we still have a few years to go before he/she is old enough to participate. We're probably not going to have DC baptized or mitzvahed but want him/her to feel comfortable in both traditions; if DC wants to commit to one or the other we'd definitely be supportive of that. Thanks again!

The problem, OP, is that Judaism is not a "tradition." It is a religion. It's more than spinning a dreidel or eating latkes. If that's want you want your kids to know, that's just fine. But if you want them to go to Sunday School or are actually thinking of a Bar Mitzvah, really OP, approaching it as a "tradition" is insulting. It's a faith to us. It's not something you get to decide one year you want your kids to "participate" in.

And the notion that your child can experience both "traditions" and then commit to one? You are basically saying to the child, Christ is the Messiah. No wait, no Messiah. You choose, kid. Is that something you do for your child is any other sphere of life? Tell them two opposing viewpoints in conflict and tell them to commit when they are ready?

What is a "faith" to you can be a "tradition" to others just as a hamburger can be a special treat to one person, an everyday meal to another or a piece of unappetizing ground up dead animal flesh to another.

There is not one right way to view religions or to practice them.

That's not the point. Yes, there is no one "Right" way to be religious. But you can't up and decide one day to have a Bar Mitzvah. It's just not like that.

OP did not mention deciding one day to have a Bar Mitzvah. I think that's your projection.

[Anonymous]

OP here - thanks for all of the replies. I'm now thinking that Sunday school is probably not a good bet for us (I didn't fully grasp how big of a commitment it is), but will definitely look into the other options discussed. Our kid hasn't been born yet, so we still have a few years to go before he/she is old enough to participate. We're probably not going to have DC baptized or mitzvahed but want him/her to feel comfortable in both traditions; if DC wants to commit to one or the other we'd definitely be supportive of that. Thanks again!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am Jewish and have never heard of this prohibition on going into churches. Is that in the Torah?? I doubt it.

you mean the written torah? Most of jewish law (oral torah) is contained in later works and commentaries. "torah" in the broader sense can include not only the talmud, but the entire corpus of jewish legal tradition stemming from the torah. I will do a quick search, but I imagine its derived from the biblical ban on idolatry (which christianity has been considered, at least since the time of Maimonides I think)

[Anonymous]

this is from an Orthodox web site, on entering a church


http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5772/bo.html

this conservative answer allows it

http://www.responsafortoday.com/engsums/6_13.htm

Both note that traditional sources are more lenient on entering a mosque than entering a church

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Judaism is meant for jews. OP is not jewish and the kids are not either. At most you might be tolerated. You will not be welcomed

Maybe not by you, but what you typed and the tone you took is not true of all of us. There are plenty of places that this family would be welcome at services and activities. Jeez.

(though op, Jewish sinday school really isn't right for your Christian children... Sorry.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It has been very difficult to raise culturally Jewish but religiously Christian children amidst Jewish cousins. The cousins don't see Christianity as equal or even valid. They act as though Christian beliefs and practices are a big joke. My younger DD has celebrated with all of her cousins when they reached b'nai mitzvah age, but not a single one attended her First Communion. She was very hurt.

This has been my experience too. We are expected to attend and celebrate bar mitzvahs, but no one from DH's family attended our kids' baptisms, First Communions, or Confirmations. It was and is indescribably hurtful and has forever marred my relationships with my ILs.

I understand that Jews have suffered centuries of persecution. I am not personally responsible for that, however, and from where I sit, the reality and importance of present-day family ties trump historically-based grievances. It is shocking to me that my ILs refuse to get that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In addition, the cousins and their parents are not Orthodox. I don't think the family has had an Orthodox member in a century or more. Not even Conservadox or Modern Orthodox. The cousins and parents are largely Reform. The grandparents are Conservative. It would just be nice to see them offer the same support for her rites of passage as we have for theirs. Not even an apology or word of regret to soften her disappoinment. I can bet my life that we'd never hear the end of it if she skipped even one of their b'nai mitzvahs.

I was raised Reform, I am now Conservative (would you consider me Conservadox? I observe some degree of kashrut but I also believe in ordaining gay rabbis) and my brother has always been Reform. Once at a museum he was visibly uncomfortable with baroque paintings that had lots of images of bleeding jesus on the cross, so we quickly zipped over to abstract expressionists. I find this somewhat amusing. Do not assume people are assimilated because they are Reform.

Again I do not know why they did not send regrets - perhaps they did not how to express what they were feeling, and were embarassed, and thought it best to say nothing. Or maybe they have aspergers. Whatever.

Or maybe they are just rude and thoughtless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been very difficult to raise culturally Jewish but religiously Christian children amidst Jewish cousins. The cousins don't see Christianity as equal or even valid. They act as though Christian beliefs and practices are a big joke. My younger DD has celebrated with all of her cousins when they reached b'nai mitzvah age, but not a single one attended her First Communion. She was very hurt.

This has been my experience too. We are expected to attend and celebrate bar mitzvahs, but no one from DH's family attended our kids' baptisms, First Communions, or Confirmations. It was and is indescribably hurtful and has forever marred my relationships with my ILs.

I understand that Jews have suffered centuries of persecution. I am not personally responsible for that, however, and from where I sit, the reality and importance of present-day family ties trump historically-based grievances. It is shocking to me that my ILs refuse to get that.

^^^9:47 here. I should add, although DH is Jewish, our kids don't self-identify as "culturally Jewish." They have been raised as, and self-identify as Christians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been very difficult to raise culturally Jewish but religiously Christian children amidst Jewish cousins. The cousins don't see Christianity as equal or even valid. They act as though Christian beliefs and practices are a big joke. My younger DD has celebrated with all of her cousins when they reached b'nai mitzvah age, but not a single one attended her First Communion. She was very hurt.

This has been my experience too. We are expected to attend and celebrate bar mitzvahs, but no one from DH's family attended our kids' baptisms, First Communions, or Confirmations. It was and is indescribably hurtful and has forever marred my relationships with my ILs.

I understand that Jews have suffered centuries of persecution. I am not personally responsible for that, however, and from where I sit, the reality and importance of present-day family ties trump historically-based grievances. It is shocking to me that my ILs refuse to get that.

I do not think you are responsible for centuries of persecution. I am just trying to explain the gut responses some Jews have to christian ritual. Sometimes things seem less hurtful if you understand them. What should trump what for whom is not for me to say. But I do think its sometimes difficult for gentiles/whites/men/straights/physicallyable to understand the things that bug jews/peopleofcolor/gays/disabled people. When one is a majority, privileged or not, one tends to look at things from a certain POV (and oh yes, that includes the way jews by birth sometimes look at jews by choice or interfaith couples trying to establish a jewish home)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In addition, the cousins and their parents are not Orthodox. I don't think the family has had an Orthodox member in a century or more. Not even Conservadox or Modern Orthodox. The cousins and parents are largely Reform. The grandparents are Conservative. It would just be nice to see them offer the same support for her rites of passage as we have for theirs. Not even an apology or word of regret to soften her disappoinment. I can bet my life that we'd never hear the end of it if she skipped even one of their b'nai mitzvahs.

I was raised Reform, I am now Conservative (would you consider me Conservadox? I observe some degree of kashrut but I also believe in ordaining gay rabbis) and my brother has always been Reform. Once at a museum he was visibly uncomfortable with baroque paintings that had lots of images of bleeding jesus on the cross, so we quickly zipped over to abstract expressionists. I find this somewhat amusing. Do not assume people are assimilated because they are Reform.

Again I do not know why they did not send regrets - perhaps they did not how to express what they were feeling, and were embarassed, and thought it best to say nothing. Or maybe they have aspergers. Whatever.

Or maybe they are just rude and thoughtless.

thats possible, indeed. I am reluctant to assume they are, however, when I am getting only one side of the story, and that from someone who may not fully understand howt this feels from the minority viewpoint.