Secret of Jewish parenting

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the secret just a lot of expectation? The parents expect the kids do well in school and the kids don't want to disappoint, so they do well; that continues from grade school through HS to college to prof school. When I see highly successful communities (as a whole - of course not everyone in any community can be a MD/JD/MBA), I always assume that growing up it isn't about self esteem or "an A for effort" -- it is about results. Not sure why this would be different for Jewish vs. Asian vs. anyone else.

well no it can't be just lots of expectation...there has to be innate talent and ability as well.

otherwise just because i have high expectations for my son and daughter, they won't automatically turn into the next mickey mantle and steffi graf respectively.

That may be true for sports, but not as much for academics I think. Does it take a lot of innate ability to be getting straight A's in middle school? Sometimes it's just about doing the work. From what I have seen some parents just "demand" such grades, and the kids figure out a way to produce or else they know there will be a lot of lecturing and not a lot of hanging out at home; some kids can do homework on the bus and still produce those grades, while others realize they can't and spend hours and hours studying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: So while they drive their kids hard when young, they don't expect or want them to be miserable forever just for money.

So you spend the first half of your life pleasing your parents, doing something you don't like and the second part of your life realizing how miserable you are?

Pretty much. I'm in the latter part right now. We'll see when/if it ever gets better if I ever get to where I want to be -- of course being the product of "you must be at the top of your class, go to an ivy, go to any ivy professional school, take the top job you can get" -- I don't even know if I even remember what I wanted back in the day.

[Anonymous]

Guilt. Lots and lots of guilt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Social pressure and growing up in families and societies who expect excellence go a long way.

I agree, but am compelled to point out that with one exception, no one in my Jewish DH's extended family (including DH) is terribly successful or high-achieving.

But are they close knit?

I think this is true for most "cultures." And Judaism is as much a culture as it is a religion. So when you're raised with shared values, they're easily reinforced by extended family, too.

[Anonymous]

I don't get it. I just read another anti-semitic thread (in Religion) that asks about Jewish clothing, but this one claims many Jews are welfare frauds or in trouble with the SEC for securities fraud.

Are we all high achievers, welfare frauds, or criminals? Which stereotype is it? I'm so confused.

Perhaps the anti-semitic babble could just stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read "The blessing of a skinned knee". The author, a Jewish psychotherapist, has 2 daughters and they didn't seem to do anything extraordinary at home - they went to school, playdates, had one music lesson a week and some tutoring.

True, but when you are surrounded by achievers, achieving becomes the norm, not an exception or something praise worthy. Jews are extremely resilient people who do not make excuses for failure. Heck 6+Million were exterminated, wiping out whole families and they carry on, hardly looking back. Never in history will you see a more beaten down people who just pick them selves back up, dust off, and carry on with success.

Same reason a WASP family would not praise their kid for graduating high school. It is a complete expectation. Most Jews just take it up a notch. We also have tight communities. Jews always help Jews first. My experience in business is that being Jewish has given me the ability to cut in line, just due to my last name.

That is pretty obnoxious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't get it. I just read another anti-semitic thread (in Religion) that asks about Jewish clothing, but this one claims many Jews are welfare frauds or in trouble with the SEC for securities fraud.

Are we all high achievers, welfare frauds, or criminals? Which stereotype is it? I'm so confused.

Perhaps the anti-semitic babble could just stop.

It's all the stereotypes at once, and they're all anti-Semitic, and they all need to stop.

And yes, the "All Jews are smart/high-achieving/blah blah blah" is a stereotype. If you're Jewish, you should known darn well from first-hand experience that not all Jews are smart and high-achieving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, but many of my close friends are. I think in general, Judaism as a culture reveres knowledge, intellectual curiosity, and education. If people are taught to value education and invest time in their education, then why wouldn't they be successful on average?

Because even though people are "taught" that, it doesn't mean that the message is going to be meaningful to the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And there is a strong sense of community so we help one another. This ranges from hosting college students for dinner, assisting during hardships, to helping peers acquire employment

Does this strong sense of community come from being involved in a synogage? Do secular Jews have this same sense of community with other Jews? Admittedly, I don't know many Jews, but the ones I have known have been very secular. I didn't think there were too many religious Jews still around.

[Anonymous]

Go back to the Holocaust. Even in the concentration camps, Jews were still educating themselves and others.

Jews (I am one) know education is key to success, and that you never stop learning. Jews also tend to be rather pragmatic about career choices, encouraging their children to enter fields that have a future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go back to the Holocaust. Even in the concentration camps, Jews were still educating themselves and others.

Jews (I am one) know education is key to success, and that you never stop learning. Jews also tend to be rather pragmatic about career choices, encouraging their children to enter fields that have a future.

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. If you're stereotyping Jews -- which you are -- then you are part of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And there is a strong sense of community so we help one another. This ranges from hosting college students for dinner, assisting during hardships, to helping peers acquire employment

Does this strong sense of community come from being involved in a synogage? Do secular Jews have this same sense of community with other Jews? Admittedly, I don't know many Jews, but the ones I have known have been very secular. I didn't think there were too many religious Jews still around.

Many many Jews I know prefer to associate with other Jews. Unrelated to synagogue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The truth is, most developed countries in this world (as well as high-achieving and educated strata of developing countries) expect more of their kids and are less fearful of destroying their self-esteem than Americans.

I have experience with Japanese and Vietnamese families. Most of the ones I know, including my ILs, drill their children into academic perfection and the odd bad grade (an A- ?) shames the whole family. Most of the time, it works. My nephews and nieces, already at or headed for the top universities, have iron determination and great confidence. When it does not work, however, the poor kid suffers a great deal. I know of 2 cases.

Since I have SN as well as typical children, I think that you really have to gauge your children and have them reach for the most they can realistically strive for. It's not a one size fits all. They are all at least a grade ahead in math and reading, and excel in music. I had them drill mental math every day this summer to give them confidence to explore more wordy problems in class without wasting time calculating.

What they choose to do with their work ethic and their skills as adults, however, is up to them.

As a Jew, I would like to say that I'm proud of our achievement as a people, but I know in my family and friends there is far too much anorexia and anxiety disorders. Perfection sometimes wears very hard on people who are more fragile.

Hell, my cousin nearly killed herself with Anorexia, but she managed valedictorian of her elite private HS, full ride at Stanford, Double Major 4.0, and picked up an awesome job and is now working on her MBA from Georgetown. She is a mental mess, but outwardly the perfect jewish girl, doing all the right things. She just married a super overachieving Jewish boy. They are rolling in prosperity. If her fertility is not wrecked from being 90lbs of skin and bones so long maybe she will have genius Jewish kids.

Something to think about - Anorexia is now being recognized as a form of OCD, often successfully treated with OCD meds concurrent with behavior therapy. The meds calm the OCD enough so that the brain can be re-trained.

Often times, eating disorder specialists are narrow-minded and look at meds as a threat to their career, stating that 'when the person goes off the meds, the ED will return". This is often NOT true, because the brain can be re-wired. OCD runs in Jewish families. Please encourage your cousin to see a proper psychiatrist and look into OCD treatment. It will free her!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the secret just a lot of expectation? The parents expect the kids do well in school and the kids don't want to disappoint, so they do well; that continues from grade school through HS to college to prof school. When I see highly successful communities (as a whole - of course not everyone in any community can be a MD/JD/MBA), I always assume that growing up it isn't about self esteem or "an A for effort" -- it is about results. Not sure why this would be different for Jewish vs. Asian vs. anyone else.

well no it can't be just lots of expectation...there has to be innate talent and ability as well.

otherwise just because i have high expectations for my son and daughter, they won't automatically turn into the next mickey mantle and steffi graf respectively.

That may be true for sports, but not as much for academics I think. Does it take a lot of innate ability to be getting straight A's in middle school? Sometimes it's just about doing the work. From what I have seen some parents just "demand" such grades, and the kids figure out a way to produce or else they know there will be a lot of lecturing and not a lot of hanging out at home; some kids can do homework on the bus and still produce those grades, while others realize they can't and spend hours and hours studying.

k that's moving the goal posts....i'm not talking about middle school.

the academic equivalent to what i said would be getting into prestigious residencies, or that full time offer at Wachtell/Susman/Keker, tenure track math/physics position requires humongous amounts of innate talent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read "The blessing of a skinned knee". The author, a Jewish psychotherapist, has 2 daughters and they didn't seem to do anything extraordinary at home - they went to school, playdates, had one music lesson a week and some tutoring.

True, but when you are surrounded by achievers, achieving becomes the norm, not an exception or something praise worthy. Jews are extremely resilient people who do not make excuses for failure. Heck 6+Million were exterminated, wiping out whole families and they carry on, hardly looking back. Never in history will you see a more beaten down people who just pick them selves back up, dust off, and carry on with success.

Same reason a WASP family would not praise their kid for graduating high school. It is a complete expectation. Most Jews just take it up a notch. We also have tight communities. Jews always help Jews first. My experience in business is that being Jewish has given me the ability to cut in line, just due to my last name.

That is pretty obnoxious.

Obnoxious, and not something I have ever found to be true. Of course, my last name is not recognizably Jewish and I did not grow up in a heavily Jewish community.

For my family, it was all about hard work. My parents refused to let me get a job in high school, even in the summers (other than babysitting) because "school is your job." I worked my ass off. But it wasn't just to please them; I was driven as well. I don't know how of much that is personality and how much is the expectations and drive they instilled in me at an early age, but it is a definite character trait at this point. But I knew plenty of other kids at my non-Jewish school who worked extremely hard as well, and had equally or more demanding parents, so I don't know if I can label this a Jewish thing.

I know this isn't the OP's question, but I have found across my Jewish family and friends that even more than scholastic or financial success, there is a shared social and political outlook. Almost universally Democrat, liberal, sympathetic to the underdog, pro-immigrant, reasonably pro-union, extremely sensitive to bias or discrimination of any kind -- religious, racial/ethnic, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I see this in my immediate family (all professionals), in my working-class Midwestern relatives, and in pretty much all of my Jewish friends. Of course I see this in non-Jewish friends as well but it is not as pervasive.