Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

it’s NYC, of course he will be indicted. Some grandstanding DA will indict this ham sandwich ASAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

He likely will. Many such cases.

Back in 1651, Thomas Hobbes wrote a massively influential book that outlined social contract theory as we conceive of it today. It said that people voluntarily surrender their right to protect themselves to the government, who promises to protect them in exchange for their compliance.

Our government no longer views itself as needing to protect normal, law abiding, sane citizens from criminals or insane people. While I can't condone extra judicial homicide, I also don't know how long we can continue like this with rampant crime, mass shootings, etc and our society continuing to function. Think of those Uvalde parents, literally cuffed by the police as they stood outside the school listening to their children being murdered. This cannot continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

it’s NYC, of course he will be indicted. Some grandstanding DA will indict this ham sandwich ASAP.

This is not the proverbial ham sandwich. They’re going to put this in grand jury and call multiple passengers from the train, including the people that called 911 and probably the people that helped Penny; play the complete video from the train (not just what has been released thus far), which likely will show the guy acting aggressive and threatening as opposed to just begging for water or food; and an indictment will not be returned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

it’s NYC, of course he will be indicted. Some grandstanding DA will indict this ham sandwich ASAP.

This is not the proverbial ham sandwich. They’re going to put this in grand jury and call multiple passengers from the train, including the people that called 911 and probably the people that helped Penny; play the complete video from the train (not just what has been released thus far), which likely will show the guy acting aggressive and threatening as opposed to just begging for water or food; and an indictment will not be returned.

Your faith in the courts is touching.

[Anonymous]

If he is convicted I will officially declare this country has a death wish and deserves all the crazies and unproductive individuals it welcomes with open arms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A different former prosecutor here, I have watched the video and I think the former Marine gets convicted of whatever form of homicide he is properly charged with. He choked the guy several minutes beyond the guy going limp and unresponsive, while bystanders filmed and urged him to let go. The case is almost exactly the same as Floyd, the only difference being that while Floyd barely made any trouble for police this guy was apparently yelling for food and water. Nobody there knew his arrest history it cannot possibly be relevant to whether the Marine’s actions were justified - they were not justified to the level that he took them. Whether the Marine has PTSD or we find out he has other history that might explain his motivation to choke the guy much longer than necessary only time will tell.

I can’t help thinking what might have happened if someone on that train just offered the guy a water bottle and the lunch or snack they had in their bag.

On the off chance you're telling the truth about being a former prosecutor, it's good that you no longer are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

It truly is weird. The guy who killed the young woman in Arizona on a hiking trail had been released to freedom despite FIVE kidnapping charges. Clearly we need to do better.

[Anonymous]

It's interesting that people think the Marine should know the "necessary" amount of time to choke someone and would know what amount is "more than necessary." Perhaps I don't have as much experience choking people as the former prosecutor has, where he can be precise when he finds himself needing to subdue someone. You know, one of those everyday situations where you fear for your life and have to choke someone for just the right amount of time to make them pass out but not die.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This country is never knowing how to deal with. It's mentally or physically disabled. Healthcare system for them is a joke. And now it's illegal to have people in institutional type settings.... You can thank Congress and Obama for that.

Actually, you can thank Ronald Reagan and the ACLU. The individual liberties folks teamed up with the "cut government spending" Republicans in the 70s and 80s and shut down all the mental institutions. And no doubt, the mental institutions at that time were snake pits. But there must be some intermediate way of humanely confining and treating the severely mentally ill.

I don't think that the people in that subway car should be blamed for their reaction. But we should collectively blame ourselves as a society for not being willing to fund (on the right) or consent to (on the left) mental health and criminal justice policies that would've prevented this from happening.

I was JUST saying this to my friend this morning. Left and right are both horrible on this stuff.

Absolutely. There are no heroes here, including the self-righteous mob judging on man's actions that resulted in a tragic loss of life while downplaying the years of trauma and hardship that the victim endured. I would also include the self-righteous New Yorkers whose answer to safety concerns about metally unstable people is to simply change cars or move away. I'm not sure that treating fellow human beings as though they don't exist and looking away from their hardship in a daily basis is the moral highground.

I agree. It’s all sad. Looking away, ignoring mentally ill people screaming and cursing and obviously agitated, defunding, deflecting, it’s all a way of pretending nothing terrible is happening in our midst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting that people think the Marine should know the "necessary" amount of time to choke someone and would know what amount is "more than necessary." Perhaps I don't have as much experience choking people as the former prosecutor has, where he can be precise when he finds himself needing to subdue someone. You know, one of those everyday situations where you fear for your life and have to choke someone for just the right amount of time to make them pass out but not die.

Do we know yet why this guy felt he a)Had to subdue him and b)do it by the neck and c) not let go? Bec I can tell you every New Yorker doesn’t feel called to wrestle every vagrant on the subway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting that people think the Marine should know the "necessary" amount of time to choke someone and would know what amount is "more than necessary." Perhaps I don't have as much experience choking people as the former prosecutor has, where he can be precise when he finds himself needing to subdue someone. You know, one of those everyday situations where you fear for your life and have to choke someone for just the right amount of time to make them pass out but not die.

Do we know yet why this guy felt he a)Had to subdue him and b)do it by the neck and c) not let go? Bec I can tell you every New Yorker doesn’t feel called to wrestle every vagrant on the subway.

DP. This guy seemingly thought this vagrant was different, was actually a serious danger. Given Neely's history, Penny seemed to have judged correctly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting that people think the Marine should know the "necessary" amount of time to choke someone and would know what amount is "more than necessary." Perhaps I don't have as much experience choking people as the former prosecutor has, where he can be precise when he finds himself needing to subdue someone. You know, one of those everyday situations where you fear for your life and have to choke someone for just the right amount of time to make them pass out but not die.

Do we know yet why this guy felt he a)Had to subdue him and b)do it by the neck and c) not let go? Bec I can tell you every New Yorker doesn’t feel called to wrestle every vagrant on the subway.

DP. This guy seemingly thought this vagrant was different, was actually a serious danger. Given Neely's history, Penny seemed to have judged correctly.

this is what I think too. throwing objects, verbalizing threats, aggressive body language. I think Penny may end up charged because self defense does not authorize disproportionate force. but he wasn’t wrong about engaging in self defense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Society has basically washed its hands of dealing with violent mentally ill and homeless people, and individuals are left to defend themselves. In this new paradigm, the homeless and mentally ill cannot be locked up, but if you misjudge a situation and hurt them, you will go to jail. I'm sure the Marine will go to jail. But if the situation were reversed and the mentally ill man killed the Marine, no one would be talking about this at all. We are a truly sick society.

The marine will not go to jail. In fact, I doubt he will be indicted.

He likely will. Many such cases.

Back in 1651, Thomas Hobbes wrote a massively influential book that outlined social contract theory as we conceive of it today. It said that people voluntarily surrender their right to protect themselves to the government, who promises to protect them in exchange for their compliance.

Our government no longer views itself as needing to protect normal, law abiding, sane citizens from criminals or insane people. While I can't condone extra judicial homicide, I also don't know how long we can continue like this with rampant crime, mass shootings, etc and our society continuing to function. Think of those Uvalde parents, literally cuffed by the police as they stood outside the school listening to their children being murdered. This cannot continue.

And if you are some non-woke 20 something, why would you put your life and/or freedom on the line by serving as police or in the armed forces, when you know the system doesn’t support you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A different former prosecutor here, I have watched the video and I think the former Marine gets convicted of whatever form of homicide he is properly charged with. He choked the guy several minutes beyond the guy going limp and unresponsive, while bystanders filmed and urged him to let go. The case is almost exactly the same as Floyd, .

To me there is a huge difference in my expectations for the police to NOT "accidentally" kneel on a guy til he's dead, and a random passenger on the subway subduing a passenger.

Put me on that jury, I'm not convicting this guy.

- I only vote Dem