New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Doesn't this just push the whole tying it to middle schools basically? A could from Sandburg could score 100 poinless less than a kid from Frost and be admitted because Sandburg has seats. Is that why people are going crazy over this? I'm just trying to follow because the complaint doesn't make it clear.

I don't think it is just that, but that is a huge impact. A school goes from having 50 admitted to having 5, based on a quota.
If the remainder after the per school quota seats are filled represents half, a school that was previously doing well would have its seats reduced by maybe half.
I'm not familiar with demographics in Fairfax, but if Asians are disproportionately at a handful of middle schools, then the per school quota would reduce the number of Asians substantially.
It looks like the school board expects this result, with the superintendent showing a chart of the expected racial mix after the changes are made.

On top of this, there is an essay that will be graded with race in mind. The goal is to increase the number of blacks and Hispanics.
Or as the Loudoun person put it in the school board meeting about AoS admissions, 'more black and brown people'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

What!?! Experience factors considered are only a few finely set forth criterial that are targeting URMs. They aren't looking for "grit, determination, and response to adversity" - they are looking for a weigh to add weight to an application that would otherwise not make the cut.

This person has no idea how admissions works. Which is fine - very few actually do - but don't pretend like you understand how it's done.

At the August 15th school board meeting Loudoun explained and voted on it's changes to AoS admissions policy. Loudoun has said they are in close coordination with Fairfax regarding their equity initiatives, so I think it is fair to say TJ admissions will be operating in a similar way.
At this meeting, they said they were moving the essay to the primary screening step, and that the grading would be done by two reviewers, and the reviewers would be trained to take equity into consideration.

Translation- the essay is a way to move the racial numbers towards the targets we have in mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even the greatest tool we have for social justice, the United States military, uses the asvab/afqt to determine what jobs members can qualify to train in.

Regrettably the same gaps still exist in the military, with white and asian soldiers qualifying for more technical roles at a higher rate than othe demographics. Though blacks and whites who score similarly tend to have similar incomes in life.

Which suggests the military is using the test properly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

Look, I am an Indian and understand exactly what you are saying.

I am against complete lottery which is not a good idea for one reason. Say there are really 10 really talented kids per year in this area, the lottery is going to miss 9 of them (assuming 500 kids are selected and 5000 kids apply). That to me is a really stupid thing. I really dont think there are more than say 50 kids who really really "need" TJ in these sense that they would excel in a way they would not at their local HS. Dont want to miss those kids.

The problem with "strong work ethics" is say someone is practicing for TJ from 5th grade on - and 100% it is the parents who are making this decision about "strong work ethics", they would get in just because they practiced it so much over a kid who might have a real strong work ethic, but would not be going to a 3 year test taking class. Their strong work ethic would be much more widespread over many things but it would not really help them with the TJ test. I know kids who are in both categories.

I went to the first two rallies against the merit lottery. I was there in the picture in front of TJ and at the Gatehouse. I do understand both for and against the changes.

I really did not like the way the board rushed the changes in the middle of a pandemic trying to take advantage of the current political climate, the anti Asian and racist undertone of the VA education secretary, etc. But there are equally valid points for making changes, not the way they have done of course.

You pretty much nailed this. I am probably the most vocal pro-reform person on this board (once you clear out the idiots who say "everyone cheats" and "here illegally" and all that crap), and I too was against the lottery for the same reasons you mentioned - although in many ways it would have been an improvement. I think the number of real stars who would be underserved at another high school is closer to 100 than 50, based on my years of experience (the year I was a freshman at TJ started with a 1), and that really, you could have replaced the other 80-90% (of which I was one, mind you) with any of a number of really talented kids with no drop off. But it would absolutely be a damn shame to lose those real stars - and I don't think you will with the new process.

It's a total fallacy that the old process selected the "best" 480 kids. The Admissions Office would tell you this.

TJ's environment desperately needs to be improved. The kids there know it - even those who have grown to love it know it and would love it better if it were more positive and supportive and less competitive. I am hoping that the new admissions process intentionally decides to select for the total contribution of the student to the academic environment, as opposed to the old process which only selected for academic achievement. Academic achievement should be a major component in that process, and this is why I advocate for TJ to allow optional testing submissions if the family wants to, but for TJ not to administer the exam themselves.

But there is so much more that goes into being a positive contributor to the environment, and TJ's student experience would be VASTLY improved (and almost certainly result in better overall outcomes) if the process selected for students who were likely to contribute in that manner. This is why I support (even though they CAN be subject to bias) including one STEM and one non-STEM teacher recommendation in the profile - because it's really only teachers that have a great handle on the contributions a student is likely to make above and beyond just how smart they are. Don't like the subjectivity? Wait until your job references are called ten years from now.

There are way more than 550 kids each year who can thrive in TJ's academic environment. You can have both - outstanding academic achievement and outstanding contributions to the academic environment. It's time for the holistic process to demand more of these students by seeking both.

the more i read from this person, the more i think they should be in charge of tj admissions

So why not a hybrid approach? Allocate some number (or range) of seats (100, 150, 200, etc.) to the students who seem most likely to be truly "underserved" at their base school and in greatest need the unique academic environment of TJ to thrive and reach their potential. Admit those kids on merit alone... regardless of race, base school, etc. Then for the large swath of kids who are "qualified" and "could thrive" at TJ, take the more holistic approach of looking at total contribution to the environment, including their non-STEM academics, extracurriculars, teacher recs, and so on, as well as taking a lens towards the overall diversity of the class across numerous dimensions (geographic, racial, gender, etc.) to try and put together a balanced class that should help improve the hyper-competitiveness issues, the equity and perception issues, while simultaneously not missing those most in need of TJ's targeted program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

Look, I am an Indian and understand exactly what you are saying.

I am against complete lottery which is not a good idea for one reason. Say there are really 10 really talented kids per year in this area, the lottery is going to miss 9 of them (assuming 500 kids are selected and 5000 kids apply). That to me is a really stupid thing. I really dont think there are more than say 50 kids who really really "need" TJ in these sense that they would excel in a way they would not at their local HS. Dont want to miss those kids.

The problem with "strong work ethics" is say someone is practicing for TJ from 5th grade on - and 100% it is the parents who are making this decision about "strong work ethics", they would get in just because they practiced it so much over a kid who might have a real strong work ethic, but would not be going to a 3 year test taking class. Their strong work ethic would be much more widespread over many things but it would not really help them with the TJ test. I know kids who are in both categories.

I went to the first two rallies against the merit lottery. I was there in the picture in front of TJ and at the Gatehouse. I do understand both for and against the changes.

I really did not like the way the board rushed the changes in the middle of a pandemic trying to take advantage of the current political climate, the anti Asian and racist undertone of the VA education secretary, etc. But there are equally valid points for making changes, not the way they have done of course.

You pretty much nailed this. I am probably the most vocal pro-reform person on this board (once you clear out the idiots who say "everyone cheats" and "here illegally" and all that crap), and I too was against the lottery for the same reasons you mentioned - although in many ways it would have been an improvement. I think the number of real stars who would be underserved at another high school is closer to 100 than 50, based on my years of experience (the year I was a freshman at TJ started with a 1), and that really, you could have replaced the other 80-90% (of which I was one, mind you) with any of a number of really talented kids with no drop off. But it would absolutely be a damn shame to lose those real stars - and I don't think you will with the new process.

It's a total fallacy that the old process selected the "best" 480 kids. The Admissions Office would tell you this.

TJ's environment desperately needs to be improved. The kids there know it - even those who have grown to love it know it and would love it better if it were more positive and supportive and less competitive. I am hoping that the new admissions process intentionally decides to select for the total contribution of the student to the academic environment, as opposed to the old process which only selected for academic achievement. Academic achievement should be a major component in that process, and this is why I advocate for TJ to allow optional testing submissions if the family wants to, but for TJ not to administer the exam themselves.

But there is so much more that goes into being a positive contributor to the environment, and TJ's student experience would be VASTLY improved (and almost certainly result in better overall outcomes) if the process selected for students who were likely to contribute in that manner. This is why I support (even though they CAN be subject to bias) including one STEM and one non-STEM teacher recommendation in the profile - because it's really only teachers that have a great handle on the contributions a student is likely to make above and beyond just how smart they are. Don't like the subjectivity? Wait until your job references are called ten years from now.

There are way more than 550 kids each year who can thrive in TJ's academic environment. You can have both - outstanding academic achievement and outstanding contributions to the academic environment. It's time for the holistic process to demand more of these students by seeking both.

the more i read from this person, the more i think they should be in charge of tj admissions

So why not a hybrid approach? Allocate some number (or range) of seats (100, 150, 200, etc.) to the students who seem most likely to be truly "underserved" at their base school and in greatest need the unique academic environment of TJ to thrive and reach their potential. Admit those kids on merit alone... regardless of race, base school, etc. Then for the large swath of kids who are "qualified" and "could thrive" at TJ, take the more holistic approach of looking at total contribution to the environment, including their non-STEM academics, extracurriculars, teacher recs, and so on, as well as taking a lens towards the overall diversity of the class across numerous dimensions (geographic, racial, gender, etc.) to try and put together a balanced class that should help improve the hyper-competitiveness issues, the equity and perception issues, while simultaneously not missing those most in need of TJ's targeted program.

Is there a test in your plan? If there is a test, then you are basically saying put everyone in the semi-final pool and do the holistic review they've been doing for over a decade.

[Anonymous]

This lawsuit doesn’t stand a chance.

People against reform at TJ: “The test IS fair. Anybody can study for a test! Black, Brown, White, Purple, and Green people from all over NOVA are studying for the test. There’s even free test prep!”

FCPS removes test.

Plaintiffs: “You removed the test; you are discriminating against Asians!”

So, which is it? Is everybody prepping/studying for the TJ test, in which case there is definitely no discrimination? Or by saying Asians are being discriminated against with the removal of the test, are the plaintiffs admitting that they are the sole beneficiaries of said test?

[Anonymous]

Tests are so easy to cheat on with the Internet it can't be stopped. That's why schools are moving away from entrance tests and SATs. TJ needed to modernize too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While most posters on this forum are driven by a sense of propriety and not malice - casual anti-Asian racism can lead you here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/metro-atlanta-shootings/index.html

That had nothing to do with race, but is being hyped by media who want to sell a white racism against Asians narrative.

Have you been called a “foreign trash” in Fair Oaks mall, in front of your children?
Have you been called “chino cochino nariz de pepino”?
Have you been asked “ching chong chang... what did I say”?

By the way, I’m a Korean devoted Christian conservative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While most posters on this forum are driven by a sense of propriety and not malice - casual anti-Asian racism can lead you here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/metro-atlanta-shootings/index.html

That had nothing to do with race, but is being hyped by media who want to sell a white racism against Asians narrative.

Have you been called a “foreign trash” in Fair Oaks mall, in front of your children?
Have you been called “chino cochino nariz de pepino”?
Have you been asked “ching chong chang... what did I say”?

By the way, I’m a Korean devoted Christian conservative.

If you are called chino/a chinoto/a and then they say it’s a “jesto cariñoso”... they basically calling you chink

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While most posters on this forum are driven by a sense of propriety and not malice - casual anti-Asian racism can lead you here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/metro-atlanta-shootings/index.html

That had nothing to do with race, but is being hyped by media who want to sell a white racism against Asians narrative.

Have you been called a “foreign trash” in Fair Oaks mall, in front of your children?
Have you been called “chino cochino nariz de pepino”?
Have you been asked “ching chong chang... what did I say”?

By the way, I’m a Korean devoted Christian conservative.

If you are called chino/a chinoto/a and then they say it’s a “jesto cariñoso”... they basically calling you chink

Educate your ignorant pendejos

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While most posters on this forum are driven by a sense of propriety and not malice - casual anti-Asian racism can lead you here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/metro-atlanta-shootings/index.html

That had nothing to do with race, but is being hyped by media who want to sell a white racism against Asians narrative.

Have you been called a “foreign trash” in Fair Oaks mall, in front of your children?
Have you been called “chino cochino nariz de pepino”?
Have you been asked “ching chong chang... what did I say”?

By the way, I’m a Korean devoted Christian conservative.

If you are called chino/a chinoto/a and then they say it’s a “jesto cariñoso”... they basically calling you chink

Educate your ignorant pendejos

I’ve asked my Mexican co-worker why Latinos call Asians chinos or chinas and his response was that’s how they call “orientals” and he stretched his eyes with his fingers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tests are so easy to cheat on with the Internet it can't be stopped. That's why schools are moving away from entrance tests and SATs. TJ needed to modernize too.

So my DD took the TJ admission essay last week. After she was finished I’ve asked her if she had to turn on the camera. She said no. So I asked how would TJ know who is cheating or not. She thought about 5 sec and said “I guess I’m not getting into TJ” and we both LOL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tests are so easy to cheat on with the Internet it can't be stopped. That's why schools are moving away from entrance tests and SATs. TJ needed to modernize too.

So my DD took the TJ admission essay last week. After she was finished I’ve asked her if she had to turn on the camera. She said no. So I asked how would TJ know who is cheating or not. She thought about 5 sec and said “I guess I’m not getting into TJ” and we both LOL.

Yeah, I’ve heard lots of college students on spring break were hired to take the essays

[Anonymous]

The Pacific Legal Foundation is a Sacramento, California-based legal organization that was established March 5, 1973 [1] to support pro-business causes. In recent years, it has taken a lead in pursuing anti-affirmative action policies.

It is the key right-wing public interest litigation firm in a network of similar organizations funded initially by Scaife Foundations money across the USA to support capitalism and oppose environmental and health activism and government regulation.

The organization has been [2] partially funded by a range of corporations and conservative foundations, including by the Koch family Claude R. Lambe Foundation in 1998.[1]

The Pacific Legal Foundation is an associate member of the State Policy Network.

State Policy Network is a Koch org.



Oh look, a lawsuit funded by rightwing billionaires to harm public education!!

Knock me over with a feather.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tests are so easy to cheat on with the Internet it can't be stopped. That's why schools are moving away from entrance tests and SATs. TJ needed to modernize too.

So my DD took the TJ admission essay last week. After she was finished I’ve asked her if she had to turn on the camera. She said no. So I asked how would TJ know who is cheating or not. She thought about 5 sec and said “I guess I’m not getting into TJ” and we both LOL.

Yeah, I’ve heard lots of college students on spring break were hired to take the essays

Can't wait for Netflix's season 2 of Operation Varsity Blue: TJ edition.