New Year Eve's Coordinated Sexual Assault Attacks in Cologne

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yes, you are part of the problem, and you seem to have zero problem continuing the conversation. Women's rights - big ones, like the sexual assaults in Germany, and small ones, the little daily ones that chip away at our mental energies happen every day. And conservatives, including you based on how you sound, delight in making sure women occupy their "proper," non-feminist place. I posted pages back: who the fuck cares who did it. Find and punish the criminals appropriately. The "who" is a huge Republican red herring. The "why" is important. Why do men feel, the world over, increasingly emboldened to commit heinous acts? To record them and share the video? Why do several jurisdictions still charge women for their own rape kits? Why is the mere suggestion that sexism is a contributing factor in unequal pay met with spittle and incoherency from Republican talking heads? Why are reproductive rights constantly under assault? Why?

Not PP, but you sound like an arrogant, self-righteous asshole. What exactly are your credentials for deciding who is a true feminist and who is not? I could just as easily say that you're part of the problem, since the fact that you come across as cartoonishly naïve and foolish makes women in general look bad, but I won't. Only because then I would be sinking to your level.

Delightful! I'm an arrogant, self-righteous asshole according to an anti-feminist on the Internet! Which parts of my "definition" of feminism do you object to? Can you indicate which parts seem naive and foolish, so much so that I make all women look bad? Because you don't have any substance. You seem to deny to that rape culture and sexism exist here in the Western world, since it previously hasn't been as horrific. You pretend, because of Jezebel, I guess! that feminists aren't up in arms about the coordinated sexual assault on women. Good christ - pick up Ms. Magazine, any issue. They have been banging the gong for equal rights, large and small, near and far for decades. Visit the National Organization for Women, same. And conservatives? Call them ball-busting Feminazis.

So I say again, hopefully sketched out in classic, painterly shapes with the utmost in sophistication for you to be able to listen on my level: why now? Why are women's rights being chipped away at now? Revenge porn, she was asking for it, she decided to have that kid she should be poor, abortion is for stupid sluts, coordinated assaults, burkas - why now?

And what are you doing to stop it?

Oh, my goodness. You sound so idealistic, so misguided in your certainty. First, you are collapsing several different posters into one apparently, assumedly so as to present the "worst" composite sketch possible. Second, probably most of those commenters, including myself, are in fact feminists, not "anti-feminists" (whatever your last sociology professor taught you that "word" means).

You sound really young. I will give you some advice. Try not to spew your outrage all over the room indiscriminately. You make more enemies than allies by doing so, even if it allows you to luxuriate in your much needed feelings of moral superiority. Also, my guess is I've been working for women's rights since before you were able to spout your first piece of sanctimonious PC bullshit. (I've worked years full-time for little pay at very well known non-profits for reproductive rights, for example.)

Just to remind you, this thread is about coordinated sexual assault in Cologne. But you just go ahead and keep lecturing the rest of us about rape kits and revenge porn. Because you do seem to be getting something out of it, at least.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real feminists stand up for women whoever their attackers are. Cultural Marxists only stand up for women if they have been attacked by white men. Most of the people loudly proclaiming themselves Feminists here and in Europe seem to be the latter.

Yes. It's sad how many commenters' level of outrage depends on the ethnic/racial identity of the attackers.

Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real feminists stand up for women whoever their attackers are. Cultural Marxists only stand up for women if they have been attacked by white men. Most of the people loudly proclaiming themselves Feminists here and in Europe seem to be the latter.

Yes. It's sad how many commenters' level of outrage depends on the ethnic/racial identity of the attackers.

Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

I agree.

We have to be able to discuss the problems. If we keep our mouths shut long enough, eventually they will be held shut for us.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions? I, like you, oppose honor killings, child brides, and rape victims being murdered. I oppose those things regardless of the race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation of the person committing the acts.

When you make an out-of-context statement about Sweden and connect it to the suggestion that Muslims are responsible, you are treading in a much different direction. Sweden has the highest number of reported rates because the country is very diligent in reporting them and fairly broad in what is reported. There is no evidence of Muslims causing an increase in rapes in Sweden. In this very thread there are posts lambasting rape statistics because of how differently they are reported. Therefore, when you make that sort of remark, it is a normal reaction to suggest that you are being Islamaphobic.

This issue of the events in Cologne is a case in which I think everyone believes that the aggressive acts toward women were unacceptable. However, there is legitimate concern that some are exploiting the crimes for their own political goals. I am sure there are many who, like me, strongly condemn what happened in Cologne and will stand in solidarity with women to draw attention to it and seek solutions (though I don't think there is a lot we can do from the US). However, I won't stand with those bashing Islam or refugees. If the refugee and Islam-bashers could put that aside temporarily to focus on the issue of women's safety, maybe there would be more common ground on this topic.

[Anonymous]

“The extent of the contempt and assaults by Arab men, who see women as fair game because they do not dress according to the expectations of their cultural group, is hair-raising,” Julia Klöckner, deputy chairwoman of Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union, told the Rheinische Post newspaper Friday.

but of course observers from USA know more about what is going on.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/asylum-seekers-suspected-in-rash-of-new-years-eve-assaults/2016/01/08/af1ed4c8-b584-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_germany-1130am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real feminists stand up for women whoever their attackers are. Cultural Marxists only stand up for women if they have been attacked by white men. Most of the people loudly proclaiming themselves Feminists here and in Europe seem to be the latter.

Yes. It's sad how many commenters' level of outrage depends on the ethnic/racial identity of the attackers.

Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

I agree.

We have to be able to discuss the problems. If we keep our mouths shut long enough, eventually they will be held shut for us.

Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions? I, like you, oppose honor killings, child brides, and rape victims being murdered. I oppose those things regardless of the race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation of the person committing the acts.

When you make an out-of-context statement about Sweden and connect it to the suggestion that Muslims are responsible, you are treading in a much different direction. Sweden has the highest number of reported rates because the country is very diligent in reporting them and fairly broad in what is reported. There is no evidence of Muslims causing an increase in rapes in Sweden. In this very thread there are posts lambasting rape statistics because of how differently they are reported. Therefore, when you make that sort of remark, it is a normal reaction to suggest that you are being Islamaphobic.

This issue of the events in Cologne is a case in which I think everyone believes that the aggressive acts toward women were unacceptable. However, there is legitimate concern that some are exploiting the crimes for their own political goals. I am sure there are many who, like me, strongly condemn what happened in Cologne and will stand in solidarity with women to draw attention to it and seek solutions (though I don't think there is a lot we can do from the US). However, I won't stand with those bashing Islam or refugees. If the refugee and Islam-bashers could put that aside temporarily to focus on the issue of women's safety, maybe there would be more common ground on this topic.

It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real feminists stand up for women whoever their attackers are. Cultural Marxists only stand up for women if they have been attacked by white men. Most of the people loudly proclaiming themselves Feminists here and in Europe seem to be the latter.

Yes. It's sad how many commenters' level of outrage depends on the ethnic/racial identity of the attackers.

Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

I agree.

We have to be able to discuss the problems. If we keep our mouths shut long enough, eventually they will be held shut for us.

Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Well said. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Real feminists stand up for women whoever their attackers are. Cultural Marxists only stand up for women if they have been attacked by white men. Most of the people loudly proclaiming themselves Feminists here and in Europe seem to be the latter.

Yes. It's sad how many commenters' level of outrage depends on the ethnic/racial identity of the attackers.

Agreed. Look at it from the larger context. We must bend over backwards to show people were not islamaphobes, but we can't mention honor killings, child brides, rape victims being murdered, Sweden now having the highest rape rate in Europe, etc without people claiming we're right wing islamaphobes who hate brown people. It feels like and all or nothing policy. Either we welcome everyone and keep our mouths shut about potential or real problems, or were a Trump supporters who fear the other. I don't understand why we can't discuss the very real threat to women.

I agree.

We have to be able to discuss the problems. If we keep our mouths shut long enough, eventually they will be held shut for us.

Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

I agree with you that cultures matter. However on the contrary, I think that even in times when "white men" viewed women as "little ladies", Ibsen's dollhouse so to speak, there has been a general treatment of women far better than what has been displayed by this barbaric cultures. Even when women were property there was a generosity of spirit in treating them, see all the guys that went down in the titanic so that women and children could live. Its not surprising that foreign women sometimes view white men as a better marriage prospect than their local men, not only because of wealth, but because of how they're treated. I lived in Asia for a while and marriage to a "white man" meant liberation from traditional requirements of being a slave to the family.

Very different from oh a woman is out in public, she is a whore and can be raped.All women must be kept under cover in burqas. If your daughter dishonors you yes she can be killed in an honor killing. When you bring a culture like that that is so opposite is there no question that there is invariable tension.

[Anonymous]

Cultures definitely matter. I remember the heated discussion over the raping of little boys in Afghanistan and some defenders of how its their culture and we should leave them to it. My argument then was why should their culture be imposed on the values of the soldiers that had to be helpless seeing their values being violated infront of their eyes? Cultures definitely matter. In fact, a guy wrote a whole book on it, its called clash of civilizations.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

Yes. But in this case, there was a mass coordinated attack involving men from a particular certain culture. The veracity of the attack frankly, has not been seen in other instances. There are elements here that are vile enough and can be attributed to a general disrespect for women in that culture. It should be discussed.

The details are repulsive.


Vile: A note reportedly found by police on one of the two Cologne suspects
One of the men arrested in the shocking mass sex attacks against women on New Years' Eve in Cologne was carrying a vile note with translations of phrases like 'I want to have sex with you' in German and Arabic, it has been reported.

Other phrases on the sickening note included 'beautiful breasts', 'what is she?' and 'I'll kill you', according to police.

[Anonymous]

My female friend who is a dentist, refuses to visit Japan with her husband. It's not just Muslims who have an ingrained disrespect for women. But she was never threatened by Japanese men in any way.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

To your example. Obviously not all white men are trump supporter red necks. Obviously not all muslims are supporters of terrorism and sexual assault.

Yes misogynistic white men are just as bad as misogynistic green men, or purple colored men.

However when there is a mass attack by purple colored men unseen before, then the question must be asked, why?