New Year Eve's Coordinated Sexual Assault Attacks in Cologne

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I would assume that a serious analysis would determine that factors other than greenness were responsible.

[Anonymous]

Give them classes in how to respect women. There's a great idea. Oh, and classes in not robbing people as well. I'm sure that'll do the trick.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I would assume that a serious analysis would determine that factors other than greenness were responsible.

Fine, so assuming that the factors were greenness, with broken family, from a lower socio economic level, with mental issues, from a particular sect of green religion. Then we should not let those green people into the country. Assuming all those 1000 men had those issues. A serious analysis might also proclaim otherwise, the fact is, you don't know either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Give them classes in how to respect women. There's a great idea. Oh, and classes in not robbing people as well. I'm sure that'll do the trick.

+1 1 class vs a lifetime of upbringing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html

A course manual sets out a simple rule that all asylum seekers need to learn and follow: “To force someone into sex is not permitted in Norway, even when you are married to that person.”

Many refugees “come from cultures that are not gender equal and where women are the property of men,” Mr. Isdal said. “We have to help them adapt to their new culture.”

Henry Ove Berg, who was Stavanger’s police chief during the spike in rape cases, said he supported providing migrants sex education because “people from some parts of the world have never seen a girl in a miniskirt, only in a burqa.” When they get to Norway, he added, “something happens in their heads.”

He said, “there was a link but not a very clear link” between the rape cases and the city’s immigrant community. According to the state broadcaster, NRK, which reviewed court documents, only three of 20 men found guilty in those cases were native Norwegians, the rest immigrants.

“This was a big problem but it was difficult to talk about it,” Ms. Rohde said recently, asserting that there was “a clear statistical connection” between sexual violence and male migrants from countries where “women have no value of their own.” The taboo, she added, has since eased somewhat.

“There are lots of men who haven’t learned that women have value,” said Ms. Rohde, who wants mandatory sexual conduct classes for all new male migrants. “This is the biggest problem, and it is a cultural problem.”

Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

“Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I would assume that a serious analysis would determine that factors other than greenness were responsible.

Huh? Is anyone saying that this happened because the attackers' skin was a certain color? Not that I've seen.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I would assume that a serious analysis would determine that factors other than greenness were responsible.

Fine, so assuming that the factors were greenness, with broken family, from a lower socio economic level, with mental issues, from a particular sect of green religion. Then we should not let those green people into the country. Assuming all those 1000 men had those issues. A serious analysis might also proclaim otherwise, the fact is, you don't know either.

You know, I'm a bleeding heart liberal who would never close the door on a legitimate refugee. So, if the study came to specific conclusions like you suggest, I'd hope that such folks could get some sort of specialized accommodation that is more than a door slammed in their faces. You are correct that I don't know what a serious analysis would discover. So, I avoid making blanket statements about all members of a religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. I think the people we should focus on are those who commit violence against women. That is the common trait that they have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

“Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.

At least he's learning that things are different in the West.

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't a class for these men be the equivalent in giving members of the KKK a class on race relations and expecting them to change? Not likely to happen. I suspect that it is very likely that these men knew that their behavior was inappropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wouldn't a class for these men be the equivalent in giving members of the KKK a class on race relations and expecting them to change? Not likely to happen. I suspect that it is very likely that these men knew that their behavior was inappropriate.

They may or may not have known their behavior was inappropriate, but they also probably didn't expect to get in trouble for it -- police are sort of a western invention, as is reasonably even enforcement of laws.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Quote from He Who Must Not be Named:"Might I make the suggestion that you concentrate on behaviors and actions rather than cultures and religions?"

Cultures matter. That's just how the world works. For example, in the U.S., males (especially white males) have been raised for generations to think they have some sense of ownership or superiority over others, whereas their female counterparts were raised differently. In some parts of the U.S., this is a more pronounced part of the culture than in others. Each culture throughout the world may have taught similar lessons to a larger or smaller degree. They certainly all have their idiosyncrasies. But certainly what we choose to teach males and females about each person's relative worth in society matters. And that's part of each society's culture.

Cultures matter, but they are not definitive. If all white males are raised in a misogynistic culture and culture is determinative, then all American white males would be misogynists. Do you hold that view? On a broader level, many white males are Trump supporters, but many white males aren't. Clearly, white male culture in the US is not homogeneous or there are other factors besides culture at play. That is even more true when you are discussing a religion that spans continents and which has significant internal cultural differences. Going back to your original example, the issue with misogynist white men is not that they were white. If they were misogynist green men, it would be just as bad. The problem is that they are misogynist. Why not focus on that?

If the green men demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they may be more misogynistic than other men, then I would absolutely want to analyze the green men's culture to figure out if there are societal underpinnings to explain why the green men show so much more discrimination toward women than others do.

I am not suggesting otherwise. I would assume that a serious analysis would determine that factors other than greenness were responsible.

Fine, so assuming that the factors were greenness, with broken family, from a lower socio economic level, with mental issues, from a particular sect of green religion. Then we should not let those green people into the country. Assuming all those 1000 men had those issues. A serious analysis might also proclaim otherwise, the fact is, you don't know either.

You know, I'm a bleeding heart liberal who would never close the door on a legitimate refugee. So, if the study came to specific conclusions like you suggest, I'd hope that such folks could get some sort of specialized accommodation that is more than a door slammed in their faces. You are correct that I don't know what a serious analysis would discover. So, I avoid making blanket statements about all members of a religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. I think the people we should focus on are those who commit violence against women. That is the common trait that they have.

Who are "those" men who commit violence against women? Certainly not every man. I know you wouldn't, and neither would my husband. It seems like it might be a good idea to study and discuss "those" men to get a better idea of what's going on. Maybe they have common traits beyond just being males.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

classes? That's hysterical! Abusive men have spent a lifetime embracing these dangerous beliefs.

Would these courses in "male enlightenment" be voluntary or mandatory? ha!!! classes!

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:
You know, I'm a bleeding heart liberal who would never close the door on a legitimate refugee. So, if the study came to specific conclusions like you suggest, I'd hope that such folks could get some sort of specialized accommodation that is more than a door slammed in their faces. You are correct that I don't know what a serious analysis would discover. So, I avoid making blanket statements about all members of a religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. I think the people we should focus on are those who commit violence against women. That is the common trait that they have.

Who are "those" men who commit violence against women? Certainly not every man. I know you wouldn't, and neither would my husband. It seems like it might be a good idea to study and discuss "those" men to get a better idea of what's going on. Maybe they have common traits beyond just being males.

I'm not opposed to studying. To the contrary, I encourage it. But, just as you recognize that "male" is too general of an attribute, I believe that religion and ethnicity are too broad. Studies should go deeper.

Taking this discussion back to Cologne, there were so many men involved that there must have been some sort of organization. Does anyone know anything about that? There have been some suggestions that there were criminal gangs involved. I would focus more on how 1,000 guys all found themselves at the same place. Once you have a mob, mob mentality takes over and a lot of judgement goes out the window. It's the "everyone was doing it" excuse. But, how was that mob formed in the first place? If you knew that, you could might be able to prevent it from recurring. That seems like a more reasonable course of action then closing the door to refugees.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It becomes part of the discussion when it is part of the reason for this incident of alarming sexual assault.

For instance, of the 30 men now apprehended, almost 50% of them are asylum seekers. All the attackers were described as been of arab or north african origin. If culture did not matter some of the european countries would not now be included classes on how to respect women to the new refugees that arrive. When discussing the problem and the solution, sometimes it is not agenda pushing to also discuss what is obviously there - that culture is part of the equation. Not everybody concerned about this is a right wing islamophobe.

Certainly cultures and religions can be part of the discussion. My suggestion was that you concentrate on behaviors and actions, not that you ignore everything else. There are huge cultural differences between North Africa and countries such as Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. There are also important social class differences. If you want to address cultural aspects, you are probably going to require a lot more expertise on cultures or you will be getting a lot of things wrong.

Back to my point, if you focus on unwanted behaviors, I think you will find more success in achieving your goals. Classes for new refugees on how to respect women seem like a great idea. They should be offered -- along with other classes aimed at easing adjustment to the host nation -- to refugees of all origins. There are no circumstances under which I am suggesting such behavior should be ignored or tolerated.

I'm not one of the super-sensitive PC types, but it is genuinely offensive that you are talking about "unwanted behaviors" on a thread about sexual assault. Sexual assault (even when it doesn't meet the legal definition of rape) should in no way be categorized as "unwanted behavior." My MIL questioning my wardrobe choice last Thanksgiving was "unwanted behavior."

[Anonymous]

It's amazing that European leaders seriously welcome immigrants from regions where people need classes to tell them not to rape women. When I studied in Japan after college the Japanese government never put me through a class telling me not to rape women. And come to think of it I don't recall ever organizing 1000 of my fellow gaijin males to go to Tokyo station and molest women.