Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust. [b]

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

What is the alternative, you ask
- Religious men and women simply exercise self-control.
Or,
- Men cover themselves too, sharing the burden instead of having such an unequal burden placed on women.
- The idea that both sexes should be free to make their own moral choices, without societal expectations about covering, also seems attractive to me, if not to you.

If promiscuity is the fear, then the veil is not going to solve it, even if it's imposed on everyone by law. Speaking of the KSA, a Gallup poll showed that 24% of Saudis are not religious or are convinced atheists (for a variety of links, search "irreligion in Saudi Arabia" on Wikipedia). Presumably, lots of Saudis aren't very worried about promiscuity. Somebody else pointed out that promiscuity happens despite the veil.

More broadly, many believe that God gave people "free will", a concept that I believe is more developed in Christianity than in Islam (inshallah and all that). Free will is about making conscious choices to do what's right--not about having righteousness imposed on you by a large piece of fabric. This is consistent with the first alternative, above, that religious men and women should simply exercise self-control.

[Anonymous]

The issue isn't lust. Men will lust after a well-turned ankle under a burka, if that's all they can see. Nothing, certainly not a veil, is going to eliminate lust.

The issue is what men (and women) DO with their lust.

I'm not convinced the veil prevents extra-marital sex, but to the extent it does, it's because of the message a veil sends. The veil sends a message that "I'm religious so don't bother me." Unfortunately, the corrollary is "Go bother that unveiled woman over there. Especially since veil-supporters like PP have told you a million times she's using her hair to attract you."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A Muslim should know not to flaunt beautiful hair much the same way they should know not to wear bright red glossy lipstick, wear mascara, or skin tight pants that accentuate their legs. Lipstick, mascara, and tight jeans are not mentioned, either in the Quran but I am certain there were some forms of makeup back then and clothing deemed more revealing.

So a Muslim woman wearing a khimr drawn over her breasts, but still tossing around her straightened, colored, styled hair is still not understanding or accepting the Quran's whole idea
of modesty. This is similar to todays Muslim woman who wears head covering but also skinny jeans and stillettos.

One needs to go beyond literal interpretation of the Quran and just use common sense.

Yes, the hijab paired with skinny jeans....I see it all the time on my college campus. I've seen the full body tent with stillettos, too. Once I saw one of them belted, with stillettos, on a very tall, thin woman, and it was actually very striking and downright sexy. She even had a veil. Very I Dream of Jeannie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust. [b]

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

What is the alternative, you ask
- Religious men and women simply exercise self-control.
Or,
- Men cover themselves too, sharing the burden instead of having such an unequal burden placed on women.
- The idea that both sexes should be free to make their own moral choices, without societal expectations about covering, also seems attractive to me, if not to you.

If promiscuity is the fear, then the veil is not going to solve it, even if it's imposed on everyone by law. Speaking of the KSA, a Gallup poll showed that 24% of Saudis are not religious or are convinced atheists (for a variety of links, search "irreligion in Saudi Arabia" on Wikipedia). Presumably, lots of Saudis aren't very worried about promiscuity. Somebody else pointed out that promiscuity happens despite the veil.

More broadly, many believe that God gave people "free will", a concept that I believe is more developed in Christianity than in Islam (inshallah and all that). Free will is about making conscious choices to do what's right--not about having righteousness imposed on you by a large piece of fabric. This is consistent with the first alternative, above, that religious men and women should simply exercise self-control.

Islamic theology actually discusses free will a lot and typically comes down on the side of free will, although a very few theologians have held the extreme position that man has no free will. I hasten to add these are the real theologians of medieval Islam, not the internet fatwa-issuing "scholars" who so proliferate the internet. A few modern Islamic theologians have written seriously about free will as well.

Your last paragraph reminds of me of something in the Quran that has been so forgotten as extremism has proliferated through political groups and the internet. "There is no compulsion in religion." You would never think the Quran contains such a line given some of the things hijab defenders have said in this thread. This line relates as well to free will in Islam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

I'm following this thread and the thread about New Year's Eve in Cologne. It seems you have happily taken on the responsibility for reducing men's lust and improve treatment of women, and it doesn't even work. If it demonstrably did work, we'd be much more receptive to your cultural practices.

Right, very appropriate to take one example of thugs and apply it to the world's male Muslim population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

Yes, and your husband's female cousins are the perfect bell weather for female Muslim behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

Yes, and your husband's female cousins are the perfect bell weather for female Muslim behavior.

I am Middle Eastern (not Muslim) and I have countless anecdotal examples of Muslims being more promiscuous than they want anyone to know. My uncle was a urologist in an urban area and many Muslim families came to him requesting that he "restore" their daughters' hymens, thinking he would be sympathetic as a Middle Eastern person. He was not. My cousin, a doctor in the Middle East, has had to deal with the repercussions of many botched abortions by Muslim ladies who either were having affairs they did not want their husbands to know about, or ladies who were not supposed to be having sex in the first place. I, personally, have known many Muslim girls who felt a lot of pressure but did not behave as their families wanted them to. A conservative culture that encourages people to wait until marriage is not necessarily a problem, it's the completely insane over-reaction to what women wear, lust, "gazing," and extra-marital sex that is problematic. And it is positively silly that Muslims in the West then turn around and act like "wanton" sexual behaviors are "corrosive" to society, or that hijabs are magically preventing people from having extra-marital sex, when many Muslim societies are crazily falling apart in every sense of the word. It's called hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

Yes, and your husband's female cousins are the perfect bell weather for female Muslim behavior.

They couldn't be. They are Christian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

+1. Just go to Morocco and meet the lovely hijabi prostitutes. So pious!

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

Yes, and your husband's female cousins are the perfect bell weather for female Muslim behavior.

I am Middle Eastern (not Muslim) and I have countless anecdotal examples of Muslims being more promiscuous than they want anyone to know. My uncle was a urologist in an urban area and many Muslim families came to him requesting that he "restore" their daughters' hymens, thinking he would be sympathetic as a Middle Eastern person. He was not. My cousin, a doctor in the Middle East, has had to deal with the repercussions of many botched abortions by Muslim ladies who either were having affairs they did not want their husbands to know about, or ladies who were not supposed to be having sex in the first place. I, personally, have known many Muslim girls who felt a lot of pressure but did not behave as their families wanted them to. A conservative culture that encourages people to wait until marriage is not necessarily a problem, it's the completely insane over-reaction to what women wear, lust, "gazing," and extra-marital sex that is problematic. And it is positively silly that Muslims in the West then turn around and act like "wanton" sexual behaviors are "corrosive" to society, or that hijabs are magically preventing people from having extra-marital sex, when many Muslim societies are crazily falling apart in every sense of the word. It's called hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust.

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

This just gave me the giggles. Men and hijabi, even niqabi women are having extramarital sex all over the place in Muslim countries, they just hide it (you know, like hypocrites).

Actually, there are lot of teenagers/college students who take up the hijab because they think their parents will suspect them less of engaging in the behaviors they are actually engaging in. My husband's female cousins in the Middle East who are attending university there maintain that the most promiscuous girls are hijabis. Obviously, not fact, just an observation of a couple of people.

Yes, and your husband's female cousins are the perfect bell weather for female Muslim behavior.

I am Middle Eastern (not Muslim) and I have countless anecdotal examples of Muslims being more promiscuous than they want anyone to know. My uncle was a urologist in an urban area and many Muslim families came to him requesting that he "restore" their daughters' hymens, thinking he would be sympathetic as a Middle Eastern person. He was not. My cousin, a doctor in the Middle East, has had to deal with the repercussions of many botched abortions by Muslim ladies who either were having affairs they did not want their husbands to know about, or ladies who were not supposed to be having sex in the first place. I, personally, have known many Muslim girls who felt a lot of pressure but did not behave as their families wanted them to. A conservative culture that encourages people to wait until marriage is not necessarily a problem, it's the completely insane over-reaction to what women wear, lust, "gazing," and extra-marital sex that is problematic. And it is positively silly that Muslims in the West then turn around and act like "wanton" sexual behaviors are "corrosive" to society, or that hijabs are magically preventing people from having extra-marital sex, when many Muslim societies are crazily falling apart in every sense of the word. It's called hypocrisy.

+1. Just go to Morocco and meet the lovely hijabi prostitutes. So pious!

[Anonymous]

so did I assert that all sinful lust was perfectly controlled in muslim societies or did I assert that women who opt to wear do it to help reduce sinful lusting?

And really, is it relevant whose husband's father's third cousin had to say about their neighbor's ex wife's step daughter? Come on, people.

[Anonymous]

Show me the high statistics of hijabi women prostitutes or hijabi women sleeping with men prior to marriage or better yet show me statistics of men in muslim societies sleeping with animals.

Otherwise if you want to slam women who make a personal choice to cover their hair, shame on you, because if a western woman can have eight sexual partners before marriage (yes even the ones in Ann Taylor suits do), and that's justified on grounds of liberty, then hijabi women's decision to cover their hair should be respected on the same ground.

Let hihabi women be.

[Anonymous]

Wait, weren't you the one who said the Hijab wasn't about stopping lusting but stopping gazing? And exactly how does the hijab stop lust?