Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, if your contention is that men sometimes lust, yes, they do, and probably no more in Muslim cultures than any other culture.

But as I said earlier, hijabi women are trying to prevent the sin of gazing, which is far less egregious than lusting. So it would follow that, yes, they are also trying to prevent lust. [b]

The goal is to try to prevent the unfortunate and undesirable wanton sexual behaviors that are corrosive to society.

Both men and women are commanded by God in the Quran to "lower (their) gaze" but women wear hijab to prevent sin, their own as well as mens. Wearing the hijab reminds women, also, that they should control themselves.

Western society with it's linear equality ideology has deemed it shameful that a woman should have to take on the burden of covering herself to help maintain a moral society. Muslims feel no shame with this. What is the alternative? A society where men do lust openly and women do satisfy their lust, such as what we often have in western societies.

The Quran doesn't mention a woman needs to cover her hair, but if a woman chooses to embrace hijab for modesty reasons, more power to her.

What is the alternative, you ask
- Religious men and women simply exercise self-control.
Or,
- Men cover themselves too, sharing the burden instead of having such an unequal burden placed on women.
- The idea that both sexes should be free to make their own moral choices, without societal expectations about covering, also seems attractive to me, if not to you.

If promiscuity is the fear, then the veil is not going to solve it, even if it's imposed on everyone by law. Speaking of the KSA, a Gallup poll showed that 24% of Saudis are not religious or are convinced atheists (for a variety of links, search "irreligion in Saudi Arabia" on Wikipedia). Presumably, lots of Saudis aren't very worried about promiscuity. Somebody else pointed out that promiscuity happens despite the veil.

More broadly, many believe that God gave people "free will", a concept that I believe is more developed in Christianity than in Islam (inshallah and all that). Free will is about making conscious choices to do what's right--not about having righteousness imposed on you by a large piece of fabric. This is consistent with the first alternative, above, that religious men and women should simply exercise self-control.

Islamic theology actually discusses free will a lot and typically comes down on the side of free will, although a very few theologians have held the extreme position that man has no free will. I hasten to add these are the real theologians of medieval Islam, not the internet fatwa-issuing "scholars" who so proliferate the internet. A few modern Islamic theologians have written seriously about free will as well.

Your last paragraph reminds of me of something in the Quran that has been so forgotten as extremism has proliferated through political groups and the internet. "There is no compulsion in religion." You would never think the Quran contains such a line given some of the things hijab defenders have said in this thread. This line relates as well to free will in Islam.

And yet punishments are still delineated for adultery and premarital sex in the Quran too.How do you reconcile that then with the "no compulsion" rule??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Show me the high statistics of hijabi women prostitutes or hijabi women sleeping with men prior to marriage or better yet show me statistics of men in muslim societies sleeping with animals.

Otherwise if you want to slam women who make a personal choice to cover their hair, shame on you, because if a western woman can have eight sexual partners before marriage (yes even the ones in Ann Taylor suits do), and that's justified on grounds of liberty, then hijabi women's decision to cover their hair should be respected on the same ground.

Let hihabi women be.

Clearly you do not respect the woman in the Ann Taylor suit who has eight sexual partners before marriage, but you seem to acknowledge she has the liberty to do so.

Likewise, several PPs have explicitly have said they would defend the right of women to wear the hijab, but they will not respect that choice.

We will let hijabi women alone. But that does not mean we will not continue to attack the hijab and the things it represents.

[Anonymous]

Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

Oh, and I forgot to add: Muslim men routinely ditch their wives for another woman, or even better, "add" an additional wife. Haven't you ever seen an old Arabic movie, pp?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

Oh, and I forgot to add: Muslim men routinely ditch their wives for another woman, or even better, "add" an additional wife. Haven't you ever seen an old Arabic movie, pp?

No, I don't get my cultural or religious education from movies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.

NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

Oh, and I forgot to add: Muslim men routinely ditch their wives for another woman, or even better, "add" an additional wife. Haven't you ever seen an old Arabic movie, pp?

No, I don't get my cultural or religious education from movies.

I think movies say a lot about a culture. I think living in a country tells you a lot about the culture. I lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab and everyone made a big show of piety- and I was NOT impressed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.

NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?

Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.

[Anonymous]

I think anyone who is following and is interested in this thread should read this article in the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/01/11/sisters-in-law

It talks a lot about living as a woman in Saudi Arabia. Some quotes:

The woman was the principal of a primary school for girls, and she told Ferak that she had grown frustrated by her inability to help children in her charge who had been raped; over the years, there had been many such cases among her students. Regardless of whether the perpetrator was a relative or the family driver, the victim’s parents invariably declined to press charges. A Saudi family’s honor rests, to a considerable degree, on its ability to protect the virginity of its daughters. Parents, fearing ruined marriage prospects, chose silence, which meant that men who had raped girls as young as eight went unpunished, and might act again. And for some of the girls, the principal added, the secrecy only amplified the trauma. She asked Ferak if there was anything that she, as principal, could do to help them.

Nevertheless, Ferak, like every other female law graduate I spoke with, wanted me to understand that individual Saudis and local traditions, not Saudi laws, were the source of her struggles. Saudi laws, she insisted, were “perfect” (a word that I heard at least half a dozen times, from other women her age, in reference to the Saudi legal system). Saudi women’s woes were merely the result of the laws’ misapplication. The fact that I’d sought her out seemed to surprise her, and to raise concerns that foreigners might misunderstand. Although Saudi men sometimes mistreated women, the solution lay not in changing the system but in educating women about their rights within the existing structure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.

NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?

Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.

I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.

I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.

I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.

For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.

I don't think this claim is true, at all. I think there are PLENTY of perfectly moral people who wear whatever they want. I think there are plenty of "moral" Christians, atheists, Buddhists, whatever, who have both worn shorts and decided to be virgins for whatever reason. And I think there are plenty of completely immoral Muslims who wear hijabs, long beards, etc.

The foundation of your argument is that Muslims who wear these garments are better able to maintain their virginity/moral superiority. I don't see you present any proof for this, nor do I think it is true. The best way to determine this is to look at the morality in Muslim countries, and a lot of Muslim countries are doing pretty terribly on every measure of morality, whether it be corruption or sexual morality or just killing each other all over the place or what have you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.

I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.

I don't know what a Tichel is but I encourage you to move to Iran and enjoy all the women's rights there, pp.