Two spouses: a play

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There definitely seems like a distinct lack of conversation here around who is doing what in this particular play.

But, I also think all this dictating of exactly what kids have to wear for events by the powers that be is madness. In our school, I find the teachers often don’t mention the dress code until the Monday of the week you need it — instead of the week before when normal people could coordinate over the weekend. It makes me totally insane. For example, I’m the mom who travels for work and also makes virtually all our income. But suddenly, my kid tells me Monday night (when I’m in Chicago) that she needs a red dress for Thursday. I’m getting home late Tuesday night and have to work Wednesday. So, the first chance I would have to deal with this is really Wednesday night. And the performance is Thursday!! So, I’m telling my husband that in addition to solo parenting on Monday and Tuesday night for our 16 year old who has a rare genetic disorder and is cognitively a baby (he has to feed her, change her diaper, etc), he needs to drag her out to the store with the other kid to look for the special red dress that she now needs. Or we have to convince my kid to wear some garbage dress that we can overnight from Amazon, which she won’t be happy with and is just bad for the environment since she will never wear it again.

This whole situation is ridiculously unfavorable to the less wealthy. Frankly, I have plenty of money and I’m not interested in buying some one off thing my kid will probably refuse to wear again.

And those of you who think this crap isn’t a pain in the butt mystify me. Of course, doing this one time isn’t the end of the world. But the intensive parenting that is a monster created by our current culture is very challenging. And even though I’m a pretty ardent feminist, Phyllis Shafly wasn’t totally wrong to question why women would want to go to work and do all the work of a housewife. We taught women they could bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan. No one said to the men, “hey, you are really going to have to learn to make the breakfast for your whole family proactively just because you know it has to be done.” I would argue I have one of the most equitable marriages out there, but studies show over and over that my life is the anomaly.

I completely agree and empathize with everything you are saying.

Except the bolded part - and I'm being picky given your particular situation, but it's generalizable - but why is it that YOU tell your husband he has to get a dress for his kid? I have girls so they are more likely to come to me, the woman, for dresses. I also however wonder about this general dynamic where it's the mother's job to delegate or do. Why is it that the woman are being both the housewives AND the workers?

DP

Both parents should be co-delegating. The division of delegating can shift back-and-forth based on circumstances. But both parents should be able and willing to share delegation responsibilities.

-dress critic

This is completely inefficient to have two people decide every thing together. That isn't even delegating that's leading by committee which takes a lot of time slows things down than having specialists.

If that’s how you raise and check out on your very own children then that’s on you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

Right. I definitely feel like a child writing and receiving an award for a speech is capable of getting a birthday present and saying dad my show is on x day and time be there.
Alot of this mental load stuff is being a parent and the struggle is created by the need for rigid control, and refusal to delegate

What kid is getting a birthday present? Do you allow your kids to surf your Amazon account and make their own purchases? Because most people don't want their kids to do that.

Lol, right? That person’s kids also buy their own clothes.
They can’t bake cookies though…

By the time they are 13 they are buying their own clothes. They have a budget and if they want to do in store shopping they tell us if they want a ride


Younger kids are capable of being told go to your room and get a red sweater or a green shirt

You just think you have all the answers! But oops! No red dress. Or that green shirt from last year is now 2 sizes too small. What now super mom?

Then either their dad or I buy one or take them to buy it. You do have to do somethings for kids because they are kids. Were you under the impression that you birth them and then magically stuff just happens for 18 years?

Maybe you just have undiagnosed ADHD so basic things are very challenging for you

Nobody says it's hard. But you seem stuck on these very simple tasks. But in a day there are so many very simple tasks. Someone has to do them. And husbands would say they are focused on many other tasks just not the buying shirt tasks. For my house our division of labor is pretty even but no, my husband doesn't have to do the shirt but he is leaving work early today to take the car for an oil change.

I just had AI tally our last five years of Amazon packages and costs. For Share of Mind sake.

Things I ordered, by quantity:
65% for the kids (bday presents, clothes costume, sports stuff, school materials)
30% for the house (snacks, kitchen items, decor, lawn/pest stuff)
5% for me (cosmetics on sale, snakca)

Things my husband ordered, by quantity):
5% for kids (usually returned, wasn’t listening)
90% for himself (clothes/shoes, electronics, 5+ shavers a year & forgets to pack them)
5% for the house (weird electronics or lights sitting in a pile now)

Dollar value and quantity value vastly ordered by me. Tho his random electronics add up big time (roomba, etc).

Ok? Amazon won't quantify for me the mental labor of dealing with the income taxes, car maintenance, investment management, and all the other things in our household division of labor. While shopping for the shirts and bday presents is annoying I don't want to take on the other tasks so it works for us and more or less evens out.

The crux of the problem is ONE parent will not or cannot see the family’s needs and proactively fulfill them — whether it’s the school’s stated concert attire for a kid, or no more cereal left, or a sick child needing medicine, emotional support of a teen.

Then everything falls onto the OTHER more functional parent, who also still works fulltime, can get an oil change every 5k miles or two years, rebalance a PA, fix a leaky toilet, and meal plan, etc.

I mean what good is knowing how to fix a leaky toilet if you’re too lazy to walk by said leaky toilet and do something about it asap or later that day. You need a royal invitation from your wife?

I’m sorry your husband is like that but don’t presume everyone is reading and nodding along.

DP. A lot of women have this issue with their husbands. It's understandable that we would seek to commiserate somewhere. That's what is happening here.

What I don't understand is why there are apparently so many women with husbands who are not like this who need to devote time to this thread and expressing disbelief that any men are like this, or claiming it's just one or something. It's obviously not. It's a trope for a reason.

Trying to convince everyone that buying the dress and cookies is the biggest problem in a marriage is why you’re getting such push back. Men have figured out that this is nonsense, women either want to do this or don’t like the way their husbands compete these non essential tasks and then want to martyr themselves over it. It’s hard to muster up a lot of sympathy over this. Just drop the rope. Send the kid with whatever she has in her closet that’s close enough. Let the cookies go. It doesn’t really matter.

What if your kid tells you it matters?

FWIW, I'm a woman who works full-time and I do find certain things to be stupid wastes of time and therefore just don't do them. However, if my child cared about something, I would ignore the fact that I think it's dumb and would probably do it for them. Because that's part of being a parent. So I'm a little surprised that you think YOUR opinion is the only one that matters. You must not work either, because every job I've ever had has some parts that I don't think need to be done but do them nonetheless. It's called life.

So why get mad at your husband because you wanted to do something? You want to make your kid happy, that's a choice. Do you write a two act play about it if it's just life?

DP: Probably because most couples want to be on the same page when it comes to what is best for the children.

When one parent doesn't care about something the other parent thinks is important to the child's life and development, it will cause serious conflict in the marriage.

The notion that "you care more, so you do it" is a good way to parent or resolve parent conflicts, just furthers the already existing rift between them. Not only are you not trying to get on the same page and find a compromise, you are dumping the full wieght of the issue on one parent.

Correct.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

I think people are being a bit obtuse focusing on the individual tasks and arguing over whether or not they are important.

No, it's common sense.

When people assign importance to tasks, they can focus on more important tasks and de-prioritize things that are unnecessary. If your spouse and/or family is not contributing, that's even more reason to de-prioritize the unnecessary.

How can someone who doesn’t read any of their non-work emails or texts prioritize them?

This. This PP is just refusing to examine the disparity in what each spouse is doing and is convinced that if OP just organizing her life better, the inequality will disappear. But if OP is the one who has to organize/streamline everything in order to ensure proper prioritization of tasks, it's unequal no matter how well she does this. That is something both partners should figure out together.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

Right. I definitely feel like a child writing and receiving an award for a speech is capable of getting a birthday present and saying dad my show is on x day and time be there.
Alot of this mental load stuff is being a parent and the struggle is created by the need for rigid control, and refusal to delegate

What kid is getting a birthday present? Do you allow your kids to surf your Amazon account and make their own purchases? Because most people don't want their kids to do that.

Lol, right? That person’s kids also buy their own clothes.
They can’t bake cookies though…

By the time they are 13 they are buying their own clothes. They have a budget and if they want to do in store shopping they tell us if they want a ride


Younger kids are capable of being told go to your room and get a red sweater or a green shirt

You just think you have all the answers! But oops! No red dress. Or that green shirt from last year is now 2 sizes too small. What now super mom?

Then either their dad or I buy one or take them to buy it. You do have to do somethings for kids because they are kids. Were you under the impression that you birth them and then magically stuff just happens for 18 years?

Maybe you just have undiagnosed ADHD so basic things are very challenging for you

Nobody says it's hard. But you seem stuck on these very simple tasks. But in a day there are so many very simple tasks. Someone has to do them. And husbands would say they are focused on many other tasks just not the buying shirt tasks. For my house our division of labor is pretty even but no, my husband doesn't have to do the shirt but he is leaving work early today to take the car for an oil change.

I just had AI tally our last five years of Amazon packages and costs. For Share of Mind sake.

Things I ordered, by quantity:
65% for the kids (bday presents, clothes costume, sports stuff, school materials)
30% for the house (snacks, kitchen items, decor, lawn/pest stuff)
5% for me (cosmetics on sale, snakca)

Things my husband ordered, by quantity):
5% for kids (usually returned, wasn’t listening)
90% for himself (clothes/shoes, electronics, 5+ shavers a year & forgets to pack them)
5% for the house (weird electronics or lights sitting in a pile now)

Dollar value and quantity value vastly ordered by me. Tho his random electronics add up big time (roomba, etc).

Ok? Amazon won't quantify for me the mental labor of dealing with the income taxes, car maintenance, investment management, and all the other things in our household division of labor. While shopping for the shirts and bday presents is annoying I don't want to take on the other tasks so it works for us and more or less evens out.

The crux of the problem is ONE parent will not or cannot see the family’s needs and proactively fulfill them — whether it’s the school’s stated concert attire for a kid, or no more cereal left, or a sick child needing medicine, emotional support of a teen.

Then everything falls onto the OTHER more functional parent, who also still works fulltime, can get an oil change every 5k miles or two years, rebalance a PA, fix a leaky toilet, and meal plan, etc.

I mean what good is knowing how to fix a leaky toilet if you’re too lazy to walk by said leaky toilet and do something about it asap or later that day. You need a royal invitation from your wife?

I’m sorry your husband is like that but don’t presume everyone is reading and nodding along.

DP. A lot of women have this issue with their husbands. It's understandable that we would seek to commiserate somewhere. That's what is happening here.

What I don't understand is why there are apparently so many women with husbands who are not like this who need to devote time to this thread and expressing disbelief that any men are like this, or claiming it's just one or something. It's obviously not. It's a trope for a reason.

I'm a woman with a husband who is not like this. I would say that I feel sympathy for people who are married to people (I could say men since it's mostly men but sometimes it's women) like this BUT I also can't stand the posts where people say that ALL men are useless. They're not. I know a ton of great ones. So I have no problem with YOU saying your husband sucks, and I'm sorry for you. But the people who insist it's all men are annoying. I know ONE guy like that, and another that I think is kind of a loser but does a lot more than OP's husband. I know dozens who aren't like that. So it bothers me when people say oh all men suck, welcome to being a woman. If I thought that were true I would tell my daughters to never get married (I hope that's what anyone who says all men are awful is doing, otherwise you're a hypocrite), but instead I tell them to find someone like their grandpa and dad.

How would you know how involved the husband is with anything day to day if all you do is see him at the concert or the meet or the BbQ party talking about work?

Face it, you have no idea how most households function or what goes on behind closed doors. Unless you take a long long vacation with them, or start asking real questions (what do you think of the math teacher or coach or new XYZ) or the wife pulls you aside and tells you the ugly truth.

Well then you don't know how involved husbands are either, nor do the other posters complaint that all men are useless. That's what PP is talking about.

+1

This would apply to all respondents:

"Face it, you have no idea how most households function or what goes on behind closed doors. Unless you take a long long vacation with them, or start asking real questions (what do you think of the math teacher or coach or new XYZ) or the wife pulls you aside and tells you the ugly truth. "

Of course, anyone can say "I asked real questions / know the truth". It's completely hollow and exactly what someone would say who wants to portray their household as reality.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

And the reality is those PP's are imposing their judgment of what is "good for the family". Suppose the husbands said, I wish my wife would cut out all of the unnecessary crap and pick up some extra hours at work for the family. The kids don't need all of these extras; they'll be fine. They would be apoplectic. Yet somehow their judgments of how their husbands should "better" use their time "for the family" supersedes his. And, of course, you know that they would complain nonstop if husband was underemployed and funds to underwrite their dream lifestyle were lacking. These are just the sort of people who would complain no matter what.

My husband makes plenty of money and has decided his time is better spent at work rather than trying to DIY a leaky toilet or repairing dry wall. He's more than happy to pay someone who can do it right and not waste his time on it. That's the tradeoff we make. I handle the bulk of the kid stuff although he reads the school emails and will ask if I'm aware of this or that. He also does a lot of chauffeuring kids around. But he will never shop for the red dress or drop everything to get cookies. It works for us.

Can he tell when a toilet needs fixing?
Does he tell someone or call the repairman?
Does he arrange the repair time and let them in?
Does he pay the repair and look over the work?

Or does he see a leaky toilet or clogged drain in his very own home, and say nothing and do nothing?
Thats what I’m dealing with- and he “works” 5am-6pm at home and then drinks and watches TV from 6-9pm before crashing on the sofa. He has a 10pm alarm set on his phone to wake up and go upstairs to bed.

Is he underemployed or not? The tradeoff has to be a lot of money to make up the difference. Yours doesn't sound like he's bringing home the bacon at a high powered well paying job. Big difference.

You are missing the point.

If a high income but uninvolved dad can’t tell something or someone is broken or in need, and thus does nothing, then problem(s) will snowball.

Nothing to do with underemployed or not.
Has to do with paying attention, giving a damn and effort when at home.

This

It’s about giving a damn. And showing that you do.

And who is the arbiter of how to appropriately show you "give a damn"? Lemme guess: you?

Everybody knows that actions speak louder than words.

And OP’s spouse has zero action going on, only neglect. And then likes to show up to external events to protect his image and ego. What a guy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

All of these things being … picking out some clothing, getting some cookies and a birthday present? That … sounds … exhausting? Is that what my takeaway is here?

At any point was there some discussion in the family? “Larla, find a green shirt. Marla, get your read dress. Darla, pick out a present on Amazon. Honey, can you pick up some snickerdoodles on the way home?”

I don’t think you actually have elementary schoolers. Or that you are responsible for them anyway.
The only thing most elementary schoolers could do on the OP’s list without any help is make the cookies. And that’s the only thing you outsourced.

Maybe your elementary schoolers are a little slow? Mine know their colors. If I asked my daughter to get her green shirt, she would do so. If I remind my 4th grader to get her red dress, she'd go get it.

You're missing the point entirely. The husband isn't the issue here. The OP's inability to communicate and play the martyr is.

Are you really this dumb or are you being purposefully obtuse? The point is that not everyone already has a green shirt or a red dress. Neither of my daughters has either of those things - they aren't colors they like to wear. So yeah, my kids can pick out the green shirt from the closet if it's there, but they can't drive themselves to the mall to purchase one if it's not.

Why is a red dress necessary for caroling?

How would wearing an existing article of clothing prevent the caroling?

And does this child even want to sing to old people?

You're using strawmen here.

That's not what a strawman is.

And the PP raises a good point. OP is all bent out of shape that her DH isn't helping with something that is not all that important. They can teach the kid not to care about stupid stuff like that. Or if it is so important to OP to go along with the dumb thing from the school, she can do it herself. But why should her priorities control?

R u kidding?

Most of life with kids the dad just shows up at the final thing, with no effort or aid or care of any of the steps leading up to it. Vacations, concerts, holidays, training, college apps, therapies, teen relationships, funerals, weddings, games or meets, graduations, parties, update letters, health treatments, big item purchases even.

They literally do nothing but focus on themselves or work, then show up to pretend they were part of something they had nothing to do with.

In OP’s three examples it was some concert, school field trip, and what not. She probably has 100 more examples as well.

Maybe with your loser DH, but not in my household, and not with families in my social circle. Sorry that you picked a loser, and maybe OP did too (although hard to tell from her lame examples), but if your DH is missing all of that, you shouldn't have married him, and you surely shouldn't have had kids with him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

And the reality is those PP's are imposing their judgment of what is "good for the family". Suppose the husbands said, I wish my wife would cut out all of the unnecessary crap and pick up some extra hours at work for the family. The kids don't need all of these extras; they'll be fine. They would be apoplectic. Yet somehow their judgments of how their husbands should "better" use their time "for the family" supersedes his. And, of course, you know that they would complain nonstop if husband was underemployed and funds to underwrite their dream lifestyle were lacking. These are just the sort of people who would complain no matter what.

My husband makes plenty of money and has decided his time is better spent at work rather than trying to DIY a leaky toilet or repairing dry wall. He's more than happy to pay someone who can do it right and not waste his time on it. That's the tradeoff we make. I handle the bulk of the kid stuff although he reads the school emails and will ask if I'm aware of this or that. He also does a lot of chauffeuring kids around. But he will never shop for the red dress or drop everything to get cookies. It works for us.

Can he tell when a toilet needs fixing?
Does he tell someone or call the repairman?
Does he arrange the repair time and let them in?
Does he pay the repair and look over the work?

Or does he see a leaky toilet or clogged drain in his very own home, and say nothing and do nothing?
Thats what I’m dealing with- and he “works” 5am-6pm at home and then drinks and watches TV from 6-9pm before crashing on the sofa. He has a 10pm alarm set on his phone to wake up and go upstairs to bed.

Is he underemployed or not? The tradeoff has to be a lot of money to make up the difference. Yours doesn't sound like he's bringing home the bacon at a high powered well paying job. Big difference.

You are missing the point.

If a high income but uninvolved dad can’t tell something or someone is broken or in need, and thus does nothing, then problem(s) will snowball.

Nothing to do with underemployed or not.
Has to do with paying attention, giving a damn and effort when at home.

For a high income i am willing to call the plumber myself. It’s not actually that hard and the family greatly benefits much more from the high income. Your husband is not making that much if you are this petty.

Why would you call the plumber? Did someone tell you to?
Or are you the only responsible adult in your family who has to find issues and do the right thing about it?

I'm not sure I believe any poster who insist a toilet overflowing with crap would not get a mention. My husband would notice the toilet and say something but I would call the plumber because I would want it fixed yesterday, he will get to it when he gets to it. But unlike posters here I can admit there are other tasks he does that I take no part in or have any input in. Household maintenance is not his thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

And the reality is those PP's are imposing their judgment of what is "good for the family". Suppose the husbands said, I wish my wife would cut out all of the unnecessary crap and pick up some extra hours at work for the family. The kids don't need all of these extras; they'll be fine. They would be apoplectic. Yet somehow their judgments of how their husbands should "better" use their time "for the family" supersedes his. And, of course, you know that they would complain nonstop if husband was underemployed and funds to underwrite their dream lifestyle were lacking. These are just the sort of people who would complain no matter what.

My husband makes plenty of money and has decided his time is better spent at work rather than trying to DIY a leaky toilet or repairing dry wall. He's more than happy to pay someone who can do it right and not waste his time on it. That's the tradeoff we make. I handle the bulk of the kid stuff although he reads the school emails and will ask if I'm aware of this or that. He also does a lot of chauffeuring kids around. But he will never shop for the red dress or drop everything to get cookies. It works for us.

Can he tell when a toilet needs fixing?
Does he tell someone or call the repairman?
Does he arrange the repair time and let them in?
Does he pay the repair and look over the work?

Or does he see a leaky toilet or clogged drain in his very own home, and say nothing and do nothing?
Thats what I’m dealing with- and he “works” 5am-6pm at home and then drinks and watches TV from 6-9pm before crashing on the sofa. He has a 10pm alarm set on his phone to wake up and go upstairs to bed.

Is he underemployed or not? The tradeoff has to be a lot of money to make up the difference. Yours doesn't sound like he's bringing home the bacon at a high powered well paying job. Big difference.

You are missing the point.

If a high income but uninvolved dad can’t tell something or someone is broken or in need, and thus does nothing, then problem(s) will snowball.

Nothing to do with underemployed or not.
Has to do with paying attention, giving a damn and effort when at home.

This

It’s about giving a damn. And showing that you do.

And who is the arbiter of how to appropriately show you "give a damn"? Lemme guess: you?

Easy. List examples here of your husband demonstrating “giving a damn” about his wife and kids.

Here I’ll start:
- Showed up at the concert!?!
- Got on the plane to gramdma’s!?!
- ate Thanksgiving dinner with everyone!?!
- picked out a movie to watch every night of the week!?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Btw, a nanny, cook and cleaner simply cannot sub in for a real parent who parents, or a house manager, health IDer, tutor, therapist for the kids. They don’t have the owner operator mentality or the skills and have their own problems to deal with.

Paid help can take a significant load off of a parent and family.

Not really, but maybe you’re talking about kids age 0-8 task rabbit stuff. They still need some training, direction and management from someone.

Nah. Just give them the keys to your house and emails and let them loose! Just make sure they are at least proficient in English.

I would recommend properly vetting. This is assuming one or both parents can provide financing and are capable of vetting.

Mr. Important surely has good vetting, hiring, training and managing processes for his household’s staff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

And the reality is those PP's are imposing their judgment of what is "good for the family". Suppose the husbands said, I wish my wife would cut out all of the unnecessary crap and pick up some extra hours at work for the family. The kids don't need all of these extras; they'll be fine. They would be apoplectic. Yet somehow their judgments of how their husbands should "better" use their time "for the family" supersedes his. And, of course, you know that they would complain nonstop if husband was underemployed and funds to underwrite their dream lifestyle were lacking. These are just the sort of people who would complain no matter what.

My husband makes plenty of money and has decided his time is better spent at work rather than trying to DIY a leaky toilet or repairing dry wall. He's more than happy to pay someone who can do it right and not waste his time on it. That's the tradeoff we make. I handle the bulk of the kid stuff although he reads the school emails and will ask if I'm aware of this or that. He also does a lot of chauffeuring kids around. But he will never shop for the red dress or drop everything to get cookies. It works for us.

Can he tell when a toilet needs fixing?
Does he tell someone or call the repairman?
Does he arrange the repair time and let them in?
Does he pay the repair and look over the work?

Or does he see a leaky toilet or clogged drain in his very own home, and say nothing and do nothing?
Thats what I’m dealing with- and he “works” 5am-6pm at home and then drinks and watches TV from 6-9pm before crashing on the sofa. He has a 10pm alarm set on his phone to wake up and go upstairs to bed.

So the guy works 13-hour days, and here you are browbeating him to death with your horrible attitude. You can't make this up!

I'm sure you would enjoy him minimizing your "work" the same way you have done to his. You are something else.

If you are senior and working 13 hours a day due to clients, you are not managing your team or resources well. Full stop.

If you are a housewife complaining about your load and available time, you are not managing your house well. Full stop.

Weak nonresponse to an excellent point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think people are being a bit obtuse focusing on the individual tasks and arguing over whether or not they are important.

No, it's common sense.

When people assign importance to tasks, they can focus on more important tasks and de-prioritize things that are unnecessary. If your spouse and/or family is not contributing, that's even more reason to de-prioritize the unnecessary.

How can someone who doesn’t read any of their non-work emails or texts prioritize them?

You can't. You can't prioritize emails or texts unless you know the contents. We assume OP needs her DH to help in this regard. And he should be helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think people are being a bit obtuse focusing on the individual tasks and arguing over whether or not they are important.

No, it's common sense.

When people assign importance to tasks, they can focus on more important tasks and de-prioritize things that are unnecessary. If your spouse and/or family is not contributing, that's even more reason to de-prioritize the unnecessary.

It's cute how you cherry picked the line you wanted to argue over and left out the long explanation of WHY it's the accumulation of tasks and not any specific task that is the problem. I'm guessing you don't have a response for the full argument.

Triaging tasks prevents the accumulation of tasks. Quoting your full response does not change the importance of a focus on individual tasks. But we'll quote it anyway:

I think people are being a bit obtuse focusing on the individual tasks and arguing over whether or not they are important. That's not the issue. The issue is that when one spouse is left to do all the little administrative tasks and the other partner makes no effort to participate, doesn't pay attention to the emails about these things, doesn't participate in any way, not even in deciding "hey this is not important, let's let Carla where what she wants for caroling and if the organizer complains I'll handle it" or whatever, then what you've done is turned one spouse into the family's administrative assistant. And the stuff they do in this capacity may not be individually important in every instance, but overall the role is a lot and can become very burdensome.

To provide some examples:

- My DH cannot be bothered with anything related to the kids clothes, shoes, or hair. It gets defaulted to me because DH will say "Oh I'd have no idea where to start" or "I don't understand kids sizing" or "you bought their shoes last time, it makes sense for you to do it." Okay, fine, buying clothes and getting the kids' haircut is not a big deal, I don't really mind. Except then last year, there was a huge lice outbreak at their school. Both kids got it, and we caught it late because I had zero experience with lice prior to that and had missed the signs. I also got it. It took a full month of treatment and maintenance to fully eradicate the family and it was stressful and time consuming. I have a full time job just like DH and had to do all the lice stuff while juggling that. But when I'd say to DH "can you nit comb this child's hair tonight? I'm so wiped out and I still have to do my own hair" he'd protest and say he didn't know how and "you're the expert." I told him I was only an "expert" at that point because I'd had to undergo a crash course in lice over the previous week. So he does it but he doesn't look at the video I give him and he's not doing a thorough job, so I wind up doing it again after anyway. And he's like "don't assign it to me unless you are okay with me doing it my way" which sounds reasonable when it's buying a sweater but actually doesn't apply in this case because if you lice comb insufficiently, you wind up getting a reinfestation. But he was the one family member who didn't get lice and he didn't get it so it all just fell to me. And it was not an optional thing and it was not unimportant. And now I'm *still* the lice person in our household and I'm the one who does all the preventative maintenance to make sure we don't get it again and I'm the one who braids our daughter's hair and makes sure we have lice spray on hand when the school reports an outbreak and stays on top of it.

- Our school sends a million emails (like multiple per day) about everything from uniform policy reminders to upcoming events to request for volunteers. It's so much communication and a lot of it is unimportant or just invitations for make-work I have no interest in participating in. But buried among all the emails I don't care about are emails that are totally essential to our family, like the sign up link for next semester's aftercare program or info about scheduling changes for the week before winter break. So I open all the emails from the school to make sure I dont' miss something important. Most get deleted but int his way I can be confident I don't miss anything important, and that's how we wind up not missing aftercare sign ups or re-enrollment deadlines or know when testing is scheduled or whatever. DH ignores all of the emails because he says "they are mostly pointless" and when I explain that some of them are not pointless and we still have to pay attention to them, he's like "yeah, you're better at that stuff than me." Better at opening emails and reading? Who knows. But I wind up handling all the school admin stuff as a result because he's decided it's all useless. If I try to delegate it out to him, he'll push back and say "well I don't have the context for that and you did it last time so it makes sense for you to keep doing it." Which is true and also infuriating, because the only reason I have all the context is because I made it a point to learn it and the only reason I did it the last time is because he refuses to open school emails.

So all the little things OP is talking about can snowball into a heavy load to carry, and can also morph into essential family activities that only OP will have the context and experience to handle because her DH has made no effort to involve himself in things like staying on top of school notices about holiday concerts or interfacing with the activity group that does the caroling. It's nbd until one day it is a big deal and then OP is the only one positioned to handle it.
report

I repeat: Triaging tasks prevents the accumulation of tasks you speak of. Try assigning importance to tasks. When people assign importance to tasks, they can focus on more important tasks and de-prioritize things that are unnecessary. If your spouse and/or family is not contributing, that's even more reason to de-prioritize the unnecessary.

I am a new poster, and I agree. But what if the task is reading through emails - that's not just time, it's attention and focus that you have to spend to switch BETWEEN tasks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

If you read the linked article, you will see that these men are not a dime a dozen, and in fact they don’t exist at all. Underemployed men don’t tend to spend their time doing things for their families.

Since you seem to be part of the problem here, saying that you would never date a man who is “underemployed” and seem to think that men have no value to their families outside of paid work, I would just like to hear your reasoning.

If the guy won't help around the house then he better be making a lot of of money to pick up the slack and afford outsourcing. IF your husband doesn't make much money and also doesn't help, then you have a bad picker and should have aimed higher.

Exactly.

Let him be a deadweight tag along.

To be clear, the guy making loads of money is the deadweight? Or the underemployed husband who doesn't help?

They are both deadweights within the household. The former is too lazy and selfish to spend time knowing his family members or self-direct the money towards correct resources, and the latter is a selfish leech.

So the guy funding the whole thing is deadweight? Interesting definition.

Yes he’s ignorant, neglectful, and uninvolved with his spouse and kids’ lives. That’s a deadweight. He probably makes messes and careless mishaps at home as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

If you read the linked article, you will see that these men are not a dime a dozen, and in fact they don’t exist at all. Underemployed men don’t tend to spend their time doing things for their families.

Since you seem to be part of the problem here, saying that you would never date a man who is “underemployed” and seem to think that men have no value to their families outside of paid work, I would just like to hear your reasoning.

If the guy won't help around the house then he better be making a lot of of money to pick up the slack and afford outsourcing. IF your husband doesn't make much money and also doesn't help, then you have a bad picker and should have aimed higher.

Exactly.

Let him be a deadweight tag along.

To be clear, the guy making loads of money is the deadweight? Or the underemployed husband who doesn't help?

They are both deadweights within the household. The former is too lazy and selfish to spend time knowing his family members or self-direct the money towards correct resources, and the latter is a selfish leech.

LOL, what? Anyone who manages to make a lot of money for a family is working hard for that family, and is by definition, not deadweight. My guess is that anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't make a lot of money and has no idea how hard that is to do.

Said every high income neglectful narcissist out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Act 1
A happy family, one husband, one wife and three lovely children. Child A has a holiday performance on Thursday morning and needs to wear a “green Christmas sweater, blue jeans and white sneakers” per teacher instructions. Child 2 has Christmas caroling at the old people’s home on Friday and needs a red dress and plate of cookies. Child 3 is receiving an award for a speech on Friday also, and will be needing a birthday present for friend’s party that same afternoon. Wife takes care of all of these things noiselessly, on top of regular work. She also lets husband know where to be on performance and award day.
Act 2
Husband: shows up.
Act 3
Society: why do women complain about mental labor? It’s a fiction that only exists in their hysterical imaginations and they invent tasks to do because they are hysterical.

Curtain.

Some data for you OP

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-myth-of-the-lazy-father

That’s Bs methodology. The work addict dad who avoids family responsibilities gets to count his 40-70 hours a week hiding out at the office, home office and iPhone as “household help?”

Yeah, we all know what that means. And what would happen if both parents behaved like that.

Right?
I mean, the fact that men spend more time at work and less time doing childcare is the exact issue.
It’s kind of upsetting that the author of this article doesn’t seem to get it.

If he's making more money for the family then it's time well spent. Making less money to have more time to make cookies for the old folks is a bad tradeoff and doesn't help the family.

Why is that a bad trade off?
As long as we have enough money for the things we need and a lot of the things we want, then why is it so awful for a man to bake cookies with his daughter instead of making more money?

If you want an underemployed man who has lots of free time to make dr appointments and cookies, then have at it. I'm sure those types of men are a dime a dozen but I wouldn't know because I wouldn't be interested. But very few well paying jobs offer lots of flexibility and free time for the nonsense schools push on parents.

And the reality is those PP's are imposing their judgment of what is "good for the family". Suppose the husbands said, I wish my wife would cut out all of the unnecessary crap and pick up some extra hours at work for the family. The kids don't need all of these extras; they'll be fine. They would be apoplectic. Yet somehow their judgments of how their husbands should "better" use their time "for the family" supersedes his. And, of course, you know that they would complain nonstop if husband was underemployed and funds to underwrite their dream lifestyle were lacking. These are just the sort of people who would complain no matter what.

My husband makes plenty of money and has decided his time is better spent at work rather than trying to DIY a leaky toilet or repairing dry wall. He's more than happy to pay someone who can do it right and not waste his time on it. That's the tradeoff we make. I handle the bulk of the kid stuff although he reads the school emails and will ask if I'm aware of this or that. He also does a lot of chauffeuring kids around. But he will never shop for the red dress or drop everything to get cookies. It works for us.

Can he tell when a toilet needs fixing?
Does he tell someone or call the repairman?
Does he arrange the repair time and let them in?
Does he pay the repair and look over the work?

Or does he see a leaky toilet or clogged drain in his very own home, and say nothing and do nothing?
Thats what I’m dealing with- and he “works” 5am-6pm at home and then drinks and watches TV from 6-9pm before crashing on the sofa. He has a 10pm alarm set on his phone to wake up and go upstairs to bed.

Is he underemployed or not? The tradeoff has to be a lot of money to make up the difference. Yours doesn't sound like he's bringing home the bacon at a high powered well paying job. Big difference.

You are missing the point.

If a high income but uninvolved dad can’t tell something or someone is broken or in need, and thus does nothing, then problem(s) will snowball.

Nothing to do with underemployed or not.
Has to do with paying attention, giving a damn and effort when at home.

This

It’s about giving a damn. And showing that you do.

And who is the arbiter of how to appropriately show you "give a damn"? Lemme guess: you?

Easy. List examples here of your husband demonstrating “giving a damn” about his wife and kids.

Here I’ll start:
- Showed up at the concert!?!
- Got on the plane to gramdma’s!?!
- ate Thanksgiving dinner with everyone!?!
- picked out a movie to watch every night of the week!?!

Why did you marry and have kids with this person? You're having your own little meltdown in here talking about something only tangentially related to the OP.