New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

What!?! Experience factors considered are only a few finely set forth criterial that are targeting URMs. They aren't looking for "grit, determination, and response to adversity" - they are looking for a weigh to add weight to an application that would otherwise not make the cut.

This person has no idea how admissions works. Which is fine - very few actually do - but don't pretend like you understand how it's done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

The point is Asian parents will push their kids further no matter what the entrance criteria. If the criteria changes to “who can sing thr best” or “who is the best at endurance running”, Asian parents will force their kids at age 8 to become better singers or endurance runners. Other cultures will likely not prioritize pushing kids just to secure admission to a school.

You may have a problem with the current test (I agree it sucks) but the fact is Asian parents will “game” (loaded word because there is a lot you can do to maximize shots at success which are all way short of cheating) the new system. Only because they prioritize this more and are willing to sacrifice more. If the current merit lottery sustains, in a couple of years, the school racial mix will revert to where it is. Just give the Asian-Americans an opportunity to move across county. You can call it gaming but it is perfectly legal.

[Anonymous]

It is perfectly legal and the elementary schools and middle schools that they will be moving to will be grateful to have kids with involved parents and better test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

The point is Asian parents will push their kids further no matter what the entrance criteria. If the criteria changes to “who can sing thr best” or “who is the best at endurance running”, Asian parents will force their kids at age 8 to become better singers or endurance runners. Other cultures will likely not prioritize pushing kids just to secure admission to a school.

You may have a problem with the current test (I agree it sucks) but the fact is Asian parents will “game” (loaded word because there is a lot you can do to maximize shots at success which are all way short of cheating) the new system. Only because they prioritize this more and are willing to sacrifice more. If the current merit lottery sustains, in a couple of years, the school racial mix will revert to where it is. Just give the Asian-Americans an opportunity to move across county. You can call it gaming but it is perfectly legal.

And that's why I've argued time and time again for far more opaque evaluations, and a selection process that prioritizes finding different types of kids who can all contribute to an exceptional learning environment at TJ. There shouldn't be a "portrait of an ideal TJ applicant" for two reasons:

1) Motivated parents of all races will move heaven and earth to bend their child to fit that portrait, and

2) You end up with a ton of kids - again of all races - who all have the exact same goals and ambitions.

These two things contribute to a lot of the problems at TJ.

The merit lottery was defeated, by the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

The point is Asian parents will push their kids further no matter what the entrance criteria. If the criteria changes to “who can sing thr best” or “who is the best at endurance running”, Asian parents will force their kids at age 8 to become better singers or endurance runners. Other cultures will likely not prioritize pushing kids just to secure admission to a school.

You may have a problem with the current test (I agree it sucks) but the fact is Asian parents will “game” (loaded word because there is a lot you can do to maximize shots at success which are all way short of cheating) the new system. Only because they prioritize this more and are willing to sacrifice more. If the current merit lottery sustains, in a couple of years, the school racial mix will revert to where it is. Just give the Asian-Americans an opportunity to move across county. You can call it gaming but it is perfectly legal.

that's the point of a lottery, especially one that requires regional representation. If a kid has decent grades gets far enough in math and wants to attend, they should have an opportunity - a lottery ensures that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

Expensive test prep exists for the sole purpose of passing kids off as being more talented than they are. And it's the case in sports too. Experienced sports coaches can tell the difference - but with test scores as a required metric, even experienced admissions officers aren't allowed to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

The point is Asian parents will push their kids further no matter what the entrance criteria. If the criteria changes to “who can sing thr best” or “who is the best at endurance running”, Asian parents will force their kids at age 8 to become better singers or endurance runners. Other cultures will likely not prioritize pushing kids just to secure admission to a school.

You may have a problem with the current test (I agree it sucks) but the fact is Asian parents will “game” (loaded word because there is a lot you can do to maximize shots at success which are all way short of cheating) the new system. Only because they prioritize this more and are willing to sacrifice more. If the current merit lottery sustains, in a couple of years, the school racial mix will revert to where it is. Just give the Asian-Americans an opportunity to move across county. You can call it gaming but it is perfectly legal.

that's the point of a lottery, especially one that requires regional representation. If a kid has decent grades gets far enough in math and wants to attend, they should have an opportunity - a lottery ensures that

A lottery is probably legal. Opponents of the lottery say it will cripple the rigor and purpose of TJ by making it essential a regular high school. Please try to see their side of this. If you don't care about the rigor and advanced learning opportunities for the exceptionally gifted, that is fine and support a lottery. But if you do care, a lottery will by definition miss out on many of the kids people believe the school was established to serve. How to balance these two competing interests is a challenge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

This person ^ gets it. There's nothing wrong with the dynamic of Asian families as referenced above by that poster - though I think it's worthwhile to note that there is a VERY distinct difference between Asian TJ parents who were raised here versus those who were not in terms of their approaches to their kids' education and development.

But it's a major problem when an admissions process for a public school that seeks to evaluate kids from the ages of 10-13 distinctly favors an approach to education that is not shared by other cultures who are also motivated for their children to succeed.

The point is Asian parents will push their kids further no matter what the entrance criteria. If the criteria changes to “who can sing thr best” or “who is the best at endurance running”, Asian parents will force their kids at age 8 to become better singers or endurance runners. Other cultures will likely not prioritize pushing kids just to secure admission to a school.

You may have a problem with the current test (I agree it sucks) but the fact is Asian parents will “game” (loaded word because there is a lot you can do to maximize shots at success which are all way short of cheating) the new system. Only because they prioritize this more and are willing to sacrifice more. If the current merit lottery sustains, in a couple of years, the school racial mix will revert to where it is. Just give the Asian-Americans an opportunity to move across county. You can call it gaming but it is perfectly legal.

that's the point of a lottery, especially one that requires regional representation. If a kid has decent grades gets far enough in math and wants to attend, they should have an opportunity - a lottery ensures that

A lottery is probably legal. Opponents of the lottery say it will cripple the rigor and purpose of TJ by making it essential a regular high school. Please try to see their side of this. If you don't care about the rigor and advanced learning opportunities for the exceptionally gifted, that is fine and support a lottery. But if you do care, a lottery will by definition miss out on many of the kids people believe the school was established to serve. How to balance these two competing interests is a challenge.

most people don't care and most people realize that there is a difference between exceptionally gifted and taking an extra 8 hours of math classes a week for the sole purpose of getting ahead. If an FCPS middle school give a kid a 3.75 average and an A in geometry, that should be assumed to be enough to enter the lottery. If that kid struggles, then FCPS needs to look at grading policies in middle school

[Anonymous]

Why are people talking about a lottery? The School Board did not adopt a lottery system. They committed to a system that calls largely for representation by pyramid, but is heavily dependent on a holistic review of applications that everyone knows is designed to reduce the number of Asian kids and increase the number of Black and brown kids, who will almost automatically get an "experience factor" bonus that most Asian and White kids will not receive.

At this point we would be much better off just getting rid of the magnet program entirely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

Look, I am an Indian and understand exactly what you are saying.

I am against complete lottery which is not a good idea for one reason. Say there are really 10 really talented kids per year in this area, the lottery is going to miss 9 of them (assuming 500 kids are selected and 5000 kids apply). That to me is a really stupid thing. I really dont think there are more than say 50 kids who really really "need" TJ in these sense that they would excel in a way they would not at their local HS. Dont want to miss those kids.

The problem with "strong work ethics" is say someone is practicing for TJ from 5th grade on - and 100% it is the parents who are making this decision about "strong work ethics", they would get in just because they practiced it so much over a kid who might have a real strong work ethic, but would not be going to a 3 year test taking class. Their strong work ethic would be much more widespread over many things but it would not really help them with the TJ test. I know kids who are in both categories.

I went to the first two rallies against the merit lottery. I was there in the picture in front of TJ and at the Gatehouse. I do understand both for and against the changes.

I really did not like the way the board rushed the changes in the middle of a pandemic trying to take advantage of the current political climate, the anti Asian and racist undertone of the VA education secretary, etc. But there are equally valid points for making changes, not the way they have done of course.

[Anonymous]

The problem is those who are in the "strong work ethics" camp and who have spent an year training for the TJ test, see TJ as a prize to be won for that hard work. It really is a cultural thing and many who are opposed find it hard to understand. Similarly 'strong work ethics' camp would see any changes that reduce the number of Asians as racist.

This cultural gap is a bit too much to cross over on an Internet message board. Fine people on both sides that I would be happy to have as neighbors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

This. You need talent to do well. Pro-FCPS Posters here refusing to give TJ kids credit for their natural talent are showing their own prejudice without facts. To the contrary, TJ kids have gone on doing very well in HS, colleges, and professionally. It's in the government's interest to identify those talented kids and develop them.

You also need strong work ethics to do well at a high level. Even MJ and LBJ need to put in some practice to maintain their high performance. Tiger Woods is probably the hardest working golfer out there even with his talent. There is no free lunch. Strong work ethics beat talent with no drive. Government shouldn't set policy to discriminate towards people who put in the work.

Also it's very much the American culture to push kids to do well. If you don't put in enough work in practice, don't expect travel teams to give you a spot when there are other kids who have "prep"-ed. There are all kinds of academies for kids prepping for travel sports.

Look, I am an Indian and understand exactly what you are saying.

I am against complete lottery which is not a good idea for one reason. Say there are really 10 really talented kids per year in this area, the lottery is going to miss 9 of them (assuming 500 kids are selected and 5000 kids apply). That to me is a really stupid thing. I really dont think there are more than say 50 kids who really really "need" TJ in these sense that they would excel in a way they would not at their local HS. Dont want to miss those kids.

The problem with "strong work ethics" is say someone is practicing for TJ from 5th grade on - and 100% it is the parents who are making this decision about "strong work ethics", they would get in just because they practiced it so much over a kid who might have a real strong work ethic, but would not be going to a 3 year test taking class. Their strong work ethic would be much more widespread over many things but it would not really help them with the TJ test. I know kids who are in both categories.

I went to the first two rallies against the merit lottery. I was there in the picture in front of TJ and at the Gatehouse. I do understand both for and against the changes.

I really did not like the way the board rushed the changes in the middle of a pandemic trying to take advantage of the current political climate, the anti Asian and racist undertone of the VA education secretary, etc. But there are equally valid points for making changes, not the way they have done of course.

You pretty much nailed this. I am probably the most vocal pro-reform person on this board (once you clear out the idiots who say "everyone cheats" and "here illegally" and all that crap), and I too was against the lottery for the same reasons you mentioned - although in many ways it would have been an improvement. I think the number of real stars who would be underserved at another high school is closer to 100 than 50, based on my years of experience (the year I was a freshman at TJ started with a 1), and that really, you could have replaced the other 80-90% (of which I was one, mind you) with any of a number of really talented kids with no drop off. But it would absolutely be a damn shame to lose those real stars - and I don't think you will with the new process.

It's a total fallacy that the old process selected the "best" 480 kids. The Admissions Office would tell you this.

TJ's environment desperately needs to be improved. The kids there know it - even those who have grown to love it know it and would love it better if it were more positive and supportive and less competitive. I am hoping that the new admissions process intentionally decides to select for the total contribution of the student to the academic environment, as opposed to the old process which only selected for academic achievement. Academic achievement should be a major component in that process, and this is why I advocate for TJ to allow optional testing submissions if the family wants to, but for TJ not to administer the exam themselves.

But there is so much more that goes into being a positive contributor to the environment, and TJ's student experience would be VASTLY improved (and almost certainly result in better overall outcomes) if the process selected for students who were likely to contribute in that manner. This is why I support (even though they CAN be subject to bias) including one STEM and one non-STEM teacher recommendation in the profile - because it's really only teachers that have a great handle on the contributions a student is likely to make above and beyond just how smart they are. Don't like the subjectivity? Wait until your job references are called ten years from now.

There are way more than 550 kids each year who can thrive in TJ's academic environment. You can have both - outstanding academic achievement and outstanding contributions to the academic environment. It's time for the holistic process to demand more of these students by seeking both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem is those who are in the "strong work ethics" camp and who have spent an year training for the TJ test, see TJ as a prize to be won for that hard work. It really is a cultural thing and many who are opposed find it hard to understand. Similarly 'strong work ethics' camp would see any changes that reduce the number of Asians as racist.

This cultural gap is a bit too much to cross over on an Internet message board. Fine people on both sides that I would be happy to have as neighbors.

See and I would be much happier with that mindset of the "strong work ethic" if it came entirely from the student. Parents don't go to TJ, students do.

The reality of the situation at hand is that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, it's the parents who are making the decision and spending the money to do the prep. It's the parents who are collaborating in their communities to choose the STEM activities most likely to result in an offer of admission, to the exclusion of others.

Parents don't go to TJ, students do.

As the admissions process continues to change over the next few years, it is incumbent upon FCPS and the TJ Admissions Office to take steps to ensure that "having parents motivated to get into TJ" is no greater an advantage than "having parents motivated to raise exceptional students". Parents and guardians will always have an enormous impact on their child's development, both positively and negatively, and some things can't be overcome as easily as others. But right now, they have too great an impact on the TJ Admissions process and the presentation of their children.