New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Very narrow minded viewpoint. Consider that there are many kids who independently love STEM and rigor. Who benefit from advanced coursework and similar minded peers. Who attend TJ for the education and not for college admissions purposes. It is harder to get into college from TJ, anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

The reality is that the push for college has led to parents choosing a variety of paths that emphasize one particular skill set and sacrifice others. For some parents it is STEM at all costs hoping for TJ or scholarships into top ranked Engineering Colleges. For some parents it is a sport at all costs. Don't kid yourself, travel sports are as time intensive and focused as STEM at all costs (math classes, extra curricular activities, and practice at home).

Travel sports involve extra practices, extra time in the weight room, and lots of pressure. I played indoor soccer on a team that ended up with two 16 year old girls on the team. We had put our team on the list for needing more female players. This team was the girls 3rd team. Their parents saw it as a way to get the girls playing against physically stronger competition and help their girls develop toughness. The Moms were at every game and the girls were great kids but it was weird. We had to flat out tell their Moms that we didn't think they should be playing games that started at 10 PM because they had school.

Both sets of parents want the best for their kids and both would argue they are just pushing their kids to utilize their talents. Both have seen entire new markets spring up to support their desires to push their kids to be the best in academics or sports. Both will defend those systems to the death because they see it as that important to their kids needs and futures. Both are a minority within the larger society.

TJ will be just fine with more kids coming, or having the opportunity to come, from lesser represented Middle Schools. No amount of conversation is going to convince parents who put a massive amount of time and money into their kids attending TJ, or playing elite level travel sports, that it is an awful change and being done to punish their kids.

This absolutely happens in the travel sports realm. Here's how it looks for the less talented kids:

1) Parents determine that kid has some level of ability and therefore should pursue a scholarship

2) Parents invest remarkable time and treasure into private training for these kids to develop skill sets that are valued by coaches

3) Kids develop these skill sets, and as a result are selected for the back end of said travel team because they can do something that helps the travel team win a couple more games

3a) Some kids who have some signficant natural ability but whose parents can't afford the training get left behind, because the travel coach wants to win NOW

4) Parents get frustrated because kid is used in a niche spot while the really talented kids start and play over them

5) Colleges recruit the really talented kids and leave the overtrained kid behind

6) Parents cry "politics" when the reality is that they maxed their kid out and they just weren't talented enough to cut it

Training companies make BILLIONS of dollars every year off of parents who are trying to turn their kids from a "pretty good player" into a scholarship athlete, just like prep companies in NOVA alone make MILLIONS of dollars off of parents trying to turn their kid from a "pretty bright kid" into an Ivy admit through the travel team that is TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very narrow minded viewpoint. Consider that there are many kids who independently love STEM and rigor. Who benefit from advanced coursework and similar minded peers. Who attend TJ for the education and not for college admissions purposes. It is harder to get into college from TJ, anyway.

There absolutely are many of them. The involvement of parents in the process makes it extremely difficult to separate the kids who really do love it from the kids who are being made to appear that way.

In a backwards way, one of the best ways to improve TJ would be to significantly reduce its level of prestige, thereby eliminating its attractiveness to those families who are only seeking prestige.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

What!?! Experience factors considered are only a few finely set forth criterial that are targeting URMs. They aren't looking for "grit, determination, and response to adversity" - they are looking for a weigh to add weight to an application that would otherwise not make the cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

Yes. I think even the Board conceded that was an unfortunate by-product of the admissions changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

So are you in favor of a lottery? Does that include all activities where performance is currently the essential criteria for participation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

The introduction of a new metric does not immediately make it a focus. The Admissions Office would be insane not to maintain academic aptitude as the primary focus of their selection mechanism.

The students who found the test easy will benefit greatly from no longer being lumped in with the students who got the same scores as they did by prepping.

For the record, I do agree strongly that removing the teacher recs was a mistake. Even though they can be subject to bias, that can be accounted for when comparing them across populations and they provide a crucial window into the student's actual performance in the classroom.

Then keep the test and just don't "make it a focus."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

Yes. I think even the Board conceded that was an unfortunate by-product of the admissions changes.

Or geography is a proxy for geography. The school is a public school in FCPS, I agree with it serving all regions of FCPS. Do you really think there are no poor Asian kids? There are plenty in seven corners area. There are plenty at Luther Jackson MS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

So are you in favor of a lottery? Does that include all activities where performance is currently the essential criteria for participation?

DP. In favor of a lottery with a minimum GPA and minimum level of math completed? Yes! You don't have to be top two percent of test takers to do well in STEM, so no need to have that as a requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

sure, take every kid with a 3.75 who will complete geometry in MS and do a lottery



Much is made of how much Asian parents force their kid to sacrifice aspects of their childhood. That comment is ignorant of the dynamic of Asian families. It may seem offensive to the western eye but it it is totally ok in Asian cultures for parents to drive kids. Kids grow up and are grateful to their parents.

The Asian family dynamic is very welcoming of multi-generational households. You may balk at that but it works for them. Not every woman in a hijab is oppressed. Many exercise choice to wear one. The point here is that many folks jump to conclusions without understanding the cultural context. You are talking about successful societies for whom the “weird oppressive” family dynamic has worked for generations. So they are need of saviors including the well meaning one on this board.

good for them, but why should we expect children who aren't part of that culture to sacrifice their childhoods in order to secure a seat in a PUBLIC school?

So are you in favor of a lottery? Does that include all activities where performance is currently the essential criteria for participation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

The reality is that the push for college has led to parents choosing a variety of paths that emphasize one particular skill set and sacrifice others. For some parents it is STEM at all costs hoping for TJ or scholarships into top ranked Engineering Colleges. For some parents it is a sport at all costs. Don't kid yourself, travel sports are as time intensive and focused as STEM at all costs (math classes, extra curricular activities, and practice at home).

Travel sports involve extra practices, extra time in the weight room, and lots of pressure. I played indoor soccer on a team that ended up with two 16 year old girls on the team. We had put our team on the list for needing more female players. This team was the girls 3rd team. Their parents saw it as a way to get the girls playing against physically stronger competition and help their girls develop toughness. The Moms were at every game and the girls were great kids but it was weird. We had to flat out tell their Moms that we didn't think they should be playing games that started at 10 PM because they had school.

Both sets of parents want the best for their kids and both would argue they are just pushing their kids to utilize their talents. Both have seen entire new markets spring up to support their desires to push their kids to be the best in academics or sports. Both will defend those systems to the death because they see it as that important to their kids needs and futures. Both are a minority within the larger society.

TJ will be just fine with more kids coming, or having the opportunity to come, from lesser represented Middle Schools. No amount of conversation is going to convince parents who put a massive amount of time and money into their kids attending TJ, or playing elite level travel sports, that it is an awful change and being done to punish their kids.

This absolutely happens in the travel sports realm. Here's how it looks for the less talented kids:

1) Parents determine that kid has some level of ability and therefore should pursue a scholarship

2) Parents invest remarkable time and treasure into private training for these kids to develop skill sets that are valued by coaches

3) Kids develop these skill sets, and as a result are selected for the back end of said travel team because they can do something that helps the travel team win a couple more games

3a) Some kids who have some signficant natural ability but whose parents can't afford the training get left behind, because the travel coach wants to win NOW

4) Parents get frustrated because kid is used in a niche spot while the really talented kids start and play over them

5) Colleges recruit the really talented kids and leave the overtrained kid behind

6) Parents cry "politics" when the reality is that they maxed their kid out and they just weren't talented enough to cut it

Training companies make BILLIONS of dollars every year off of parents who are trying to turn their kids from a "pretty good player" into a scholarship athlete, just like prep companies in NOVA alone make MILLIONS of dollars off of parents trying to turn their kid from a "pretty bright kid" into an Ivy admit through the travel team that is TJ.

This analogy nailed the problem very well! Love it.

Without blaming one race or the other, it shows how different cultural preferences lead to the same problem.

-Indian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

The introduction of a new metric does not immediately make it a focus. The Admissions Office would be insane not to maintain academic aptitude as the primary focus of their selection mechanism.

The students who found the test easy will benefit greatly from no longer being lumped in with the students who got the same scores as they did by prepping.

For the record, I do agree strongly that removing the teacher recs was a mistake. Even though they can be subject to bias, that can be accounted for when comparing them across populations and they provide a crucial window into the student's actual performance in the classroom.

Then keep the test and just don't "make it a focus."

If you know a test is being gamed, what is the point in keeping it at all? Be mad at the people who were gaming the system, not the people who had to decide to get rid of it to remove the unfair advantage to some who chose to abuse the testing system. So much misplaced anger on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Very narrow minded viewpoint. Consider that there are many kids who independently love STEM and rigor. Who benefit from advanced coursework and similar minded peers. Who attend TJ for the education and not for college admissions purposes. It is harder to get into college from TJ, anyway.

There absolutely are many of them. The involvement of parents in the process makes it extremely difficult to separate the kids who really do love it from the kids who are being made to appear that way.

In a backwards way, one of the best ways to improve TJ would be to significantly reduce its level of prestige, thereby eliminating its attractiveness to those families who are only seeking prestige.

+1