Great article: "Democrats are in a Bubble on Immigration"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Wait... just to recap... you’re actually equating driving a few miles over the speed limit to people *illegally entering and living in the US*? Wow. Just when I thought I had heard all possible liberal excuses.

What, you think not having your paperwork in order is like murder or something? If anything, speeding is slightly more dangerous.

You officially win the Looney Liberal of DCUM award. Well, you and the insane "Cult45, Russian puppet, Australian channel" poster. Congrats!

Your spluttering doesn't really address the substance of my position. Failing to get the proper stamp on your paperwork doesn't amount to a serious crime in my estimation. I'm probably more of a libertarian than you are. Statists tend to value government bureaucracy more than liberty.

Such an understatement of the immigration issue...

Keep waving your hands. Maybe a substantive response will fall out of the sky.

I've posted dozens of links and substantive comments in the past few hours. Any responses?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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We have been giving ESOL and special education to Italians, Irish and others who immigrated in big numbers in the past too.

I'm just responding to this - as a first-gen and an educator.

My family learned English ("off the boat" Italians) in night school and on their own. It was "sink or swim" through the 1960s. However, event though we formalized the process, my family didn't have the opportunity NOT to learn b/c nothing was translated for them. So they arrived poor, worked their ass*es off, and learned the language.

So you are a brown person yourself. How can you now judge the Hispanic brown people? If at all anything Italian is the closest language to Spanish.

I think any immigrants are hardworking whether they are brown immigrants from Italy or Mx, Or white immigrants from Sweden, Or black immigrants from Jamaica.

Italians are not considered brown, and not all of us have olive complexions.

I am not judging; I am stating facts. My family didn't have it easy coming over. Once they arrived, they did everything they could to retain their culture w/in the home (and among their family and friends), but outside of the home, they were proud Americans.

You see - there came a point when building resilience and resourcefulness in people was replaced by enabling. I see it in the school system. We have created a Me Me nation where many are expecting handouts. You don't build people up by giving them everything.

Enter through legal avenues.
Learn English.
Work your a** off.
Be a role model for your kids.

Not all people are the same. I have had many students - majority Hispanic and African - who agree with me. When you enter a new country, you bend for the country, as it's providing you opportunities you supposedly didn't have in your country of birth, right? b/c if life was so good back home, why leave?

My family escaped poverty. My father barely had a home; it was crumbling. Christmas gits consisted of winter fruits. When he was alive, he had fond memories of Italy despite the obstacles that faced him, but he was proud of his accomplishments in the U. S. (Mom was luckier in that she was a "middle class" Italian, but the family knew that they could move ahead in the States.)

So the neo-libs can preach it all they want! You don't speak for all of us. And that assumption that we're all the same will be a negative force in 2020.

Italians were considered brown and were racially targeted by whites a hundred years ago. many still consider Italians brown. Italians are often confused with Syrians, Turks, Persians and even Indians. Now, would you call Persian or Indian white? But they are white.

You see what I am driving at, race is a social construct. A hundred years ago Italians weren’t considered white but today they are. What has changed? Just the social acceptance. The same Applies for Hispanics. Brown is the new white.

The immigrant blue collar Hispanics are struggling just like your uneducated, blue collar parents. Many work very hard and prosper. Some won’t. But that’s like any people. So they are no different than your Italian parents. But what you are not giving is the same benefit of the doubt you readily give your parents. Why not?

We are NO LONGER considered brown.

So yes, I know my history. Yes, my father, uncle and grandfathers were not served food in diners after a hard day's work b/c they were too brown. I am not brown. I am a light-skinned Southern Italian. I check off the white box. And my father checked off the white box, too, despite his dark complexion, as there's no box for olive-complected, Italian-American.

I just want to make that clear.

Regarding the "benefit of the doubt" comment, I don't give anyone any slack. If my poor father could make it here, learn English, start up multiple businesses, and love the United States - all w/o translation services and social programs - then why can't others do the same?

You see - when you start to lower your standards for people, you create learned helplessness. My mother came here young. She was thrown into a public school classroom with no ESOL accommodations. She sat there, smiled and was polite. She worked her way through school and ended up with a government job. no college education, just a high school diploma and secretarial school

She helped her own parents learn English. However, despite my grandfather's rusty English, he had a business that was thriving.

You apparently wish to box all people under one category. Not all immigrants believe in handouts. Not all immigrants wish to be helpless.

So if I sound like a horrible person to you, so be it. We have to agree to disagree.

But I'll leave you with this: How can you explain how so many immigrants in past generations "made it" MINUS all the resources available to immigrants of today? You don't put enough faith in the human spirit, my friend.

I don't even know what you're talking about -- are you talking about legal vs illegal immigration, or are you talking about how immigrants fair financially in the US?

If it's illegal vs legal, you need to tell us the year your grandfather arrived.

If it's benefits immigrants received and their economic contributions -- well, this has been posted time and time again, but immigrants are a net positive on the economy.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-reform-can-fix-immigration

You don't know what I'm talking about?

I never mentioned ILLEGAL immigration. My entire family arrived through legal measures.

Dad/grandfather - early 40s - around thee same time my mother's uncle was in a US internment camp

What's your problem? upset that immigrants can make it w/o handouts?

They arrived THROUGH legal avenues and did well. I'm sorry this is hurtful for you to hear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We have been giving ESOL and special education to Italians, Irish and others who immigrated in big numbers in the past too.

I'm just responding to this - as a first-gen and an educator.

My family learned English ("off the boat" Italians) in night school and on their own. It was "sink or swim" through the 1960s. However, event though we formalized the process, my family didn't have the opportunity NOT to learn b/c nothing was translated for them. So they arrived poor, worked their ass*es off, and learned the language.

So you are a brown person yourself. How can you now judge the Hispanic brown people? If at all anything Italian is the closest language to Spanish.

I think any immigrants are hardworking whether they are brown immigrants from Italy or Mx, Or white immigrants from Sweden, Or black immigrants from Jamaica.

Italians are not considered brown, and not all of us have olive complexions.

I am not judging; I am stating facts. My family didn't have it easy coming over. Once they arrived, they did everything they could to retain their culture w/in the home (and among their family and friends), but outside of the home, they were proud Americans.

You see - there came a point when building resilience and resourcefulness in people was replaced by enabling. I see it in the school system. We have created a Me Me nation where many are expecting handouts. You don't build people up by giving them everything.

Enter through legal avenues.
Learn English.
Work your a** off.
Be a role model for your kids.

Not all people are the same. I have had many students - majority Hispanic and African - who agree with me. When you enter a new country, you bend for the country, as it's providing you opportunities you supposedly didn't have in your country of birth, right? b/c if life was so good back home, why leave?

My family escaped poverty. My father barely had a home; it was crumbling. Christmas gits consisted of winter fruits. When he was alive, he had fond memories of Italy despite the obstacles that faced him, but he was proud of his accomplishments in the U. S. (Mom was luckier in that she was a "middle class" Italian, but the family knew that they could move ahead in the States.)

So the neo-libs can preach it all they want! You don't speak for all of us. And that assumption that we're all the same will be a negative force in 2020.

Italians were considered brown and were racially targeted by whites a hundred years ago. many still consider Italians brown. Italians are often confused with Syrians, Turks, Persians and even Indians. Now, would you call Persian or Indian white? But they are white.

You see what I am driving at, race is a social construct. A hundred years ago Italians weren’t considered white but today they are. What has changed? Just the social acceptance. The same Applies for Hispanics. Brown is the new white.

The immigrant blue collar Hispanics are struggling just like your uneducated, blue collar parents. Many work very hard and prosper. Some won’t. But that’s like any people. So they are no different than your Italian parents. But what you are not giving is the same benefit of the doubt you readily give your parents. Why not?

We are NO LONGER considered brown.

So yes, I know my history. Yes, my father, uncle and grandfathers were not served food in diners after a hard day's work b/c they were too brown. I am not brown. I am a light-skinned Southern Italian. I check off the white box. And my father checked off the white box, too, despite his dark complexion, as there's no box for olive-complected, Italian-American.

I just want to make that clear.

Regarding the "benefit of the doubt" comment, I don't give anyone any slack. If my poor father could make it here, learn English, start up multiple businesses, and love the United States - all w/o translation services and social programs - then why can't others do the same?

You see - when you start to lower your standards for people, you create learned helplessness. My mother came here young. She was thrown into a public school classroom with no ESOL accommodations. She sat there, smiled and was polite. She worked her way through school and ended up with a government job. no college education, just a high school diploma and secretarial school

She helped her own parents learn English. However, despite my grandfather's rusty English, he had a business that was thriving.

You apparently wish to box all people under one category. Not all immigrants believe in handouts. Not all immigrants wish to be helpless.

So if I sound like a horrible person to you, so be it. We have to agree to disagree.

But I'll leave you with this: How can you explain how so many immigrants in past generations "made it" MINUS all the resources available to immigrants of today? You don't put enough faith in the human spirit, my friend.

I don't even know what you're talking about -- are you talking about legal vs illegal immigration, or are you talking about how immigrants fair financially in the US?

If it's illegal vs legal, you need to tell us the year your grandfather arrived.

If it's benefits immigrants received and their economic contributions -- well, this has been posted time and time again, but immigrants are a net positive on the economy.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/real-reform-can-fix-immigration

You don't know what I'm talking about?

I never mentioned ILLEGAL immigration. My entire family arrived through legal measures.

Dad/grandfather - early 40s - around thee same time my mother's uncle was in a US internment camp

What's your problem? upset that immigrants can make it w/o handouts?

They arrived THROUGH legal avenues and did well. I'm sorry this is hurtful for you to hear.

they legally immigrated at the time Italians were enemy aliens? that seems unlikely. only a few hundred Italians came to the US during the war years. I think you have your family history wrong.

as for "hand outs" I have posted several links about immigrants being a net positive on the economy. They use LESS in public benefits than native born americans. https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigration-welfare-state-immigrant-native-use-rates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:what happens others who want to come here, but just can't simply cross the border? is it fair to them?

The whole rhetoric behind democrats is that they want minority VOTES!!! They have no real solutions to anything, so in order to stay in power they need these votes. It is simple as that, however, as a minority i don't buy into their bs.

I don't care so much about the votes. I just tend to like the foreigners I meet better than the rural white people I meet. The latter tend to be so shrill. And their food is usually pretty terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what happens others who want to come here, but just can't simply cross the border? is it fair to them?

The whole rhetoric behind democrats is that they want minority VOTES!!! They have no real solutions to anything, so in order to stay in power they need these votes. It is simple as that, however, as a minority i don't buy into their bs.

I don't care so much about the votes. I just tend to like the foreigners I meet better than the rural white people I meet. The latter tend to be so shrill. And their food is usually pretty terrible.

It doesn’t matter what you like. What matters is that it doesn’t work and will destroy our country if it keeps going that way. We can’t open the country up to the third world poor just because you like me them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Do you even have a college degree? if you have, you better get a refund. Gang wars have been happening throughout human history. White supremacy gangs, Italian mafia, Russian gangs, black gangs, Hispanic hangs etc etc.

America is a country of 330 milllion, what happens in small school is not representative of the country. That’s why data makes sense, not anecdotes. Data suggests what you are describing is an exception and not the rule. You have no credibility because you are trying hard to extrapolate and exception case into a everyday rule case. It’s not gonna work, fortunately there are enough educated Americans.

Actually it did already work when Trump was elected, you know. You are still blind to the anger people feel when someone "educated" tells them their individual situation is irrelevant, the pain they feel is irrelevant, their personal struggles are irrelevant because "big global trends" show something different.

+1 million

I don't care what your 'data' says. When my standard of living is being lowered due to illegal immigration, it becomes an issue for me. And, many like me. Educated and not.

+2,000,000

Yes yes yes.

How is your standard of living being lowered "due to illegal immigration." I would actual facts and examples, please. Not talking points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:what happens others who want to come here, but just can't simply cross the border? is it fair to them?

The whole rhetoric behind democrats is that they want minority VOTES!!! They have no real solutions to anything, so in order to stay in power they need these votes. It is simple as that, however, as a minority i don't buy into their bs.

I don't care so much about the votes. I just tend to like the foreigners I meet better than the rural white people I meet. The latter tend to be so shrill. And their food is usually pretty terrible.

It doesn’t matter what you like. What matters is that it doesn’t work and will destroy our country if it keeps going that way. We can’t open the country up to the third world poor just because you like me them.

"Destroy our country." People have been moaning about how our country is going to be destroyed for at least 150 years. The Methodists, the Catholics, the Irish, the Chinese, the Italians and on and on were going to destroy our country. They've all made it stronger.

[Anonymous]

Hey look, Border agents are a bunch of racist, violent, sexist shitbags.

"In one exchange, group members responded with indifference and wisecracks to the post of a news story about a 16-year-old Guatemalan migrant who died in May while in custody at a Border Patrol station in Weslaco, Texas. One member posted a GIF of Elmo with the quote, “Oh well.” Another responded with an image and the words “If he dies, he dies.”"

https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-border-patrol-facebook-group-agents-joke-about-migrant-deaths-post-sexist-memes

[Anonymous]

“They use LESS in public benefits than native born americans. https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-rese...ate-immigrant-native-use-rate“

Again - that is not exactly what that study says. It is looking at individuals and federal level only. It counts the kids of illegal parents as native born because they are and it does not count local/state school spending. Spending by the government at all levels on households with illegal parents is what the real issue is in terms of outlays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“They use LESS in public benefits than native born americans. https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-rese...ate-immigrant-native-use-rate“

Again - that is not exactly what that study says. It is looking at individuals and federal level only. It counts the kids of illegal parents as native born because they are and it does not count local/state school spending. Spending by the government at all levels on households with illegal parents is what the real issue is in terms of outlays.

Oh, so now public school educations provided to US CITIZENS is a "hand out"? Did your Italian relatives not go to school at all in the US? The native-born children of immigrants contribute the MOST to fed & state coffers, so it's absurd to claim that educating them is a "hand-out."

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/what-do-immigrants-cost-state-and-local-governments

[Anonymous]

This analysis of economic contributions and tax outlays is great for rational decision making, but I don't think that's really at the heart of the strong feelings on immigration -- any more than I ever believed Tea Partiers were ever really concerned about deficits and tax policy. (I also don't truly believe it's an abiding concern over law & order that's the real motivator. They wouldn't be happy if we had the same number of immigrants even if 100% of them were coming here legally.)

These are cultural reactions. Maybe it's racism, but I don't necessarily want to tar people with that epithet. I disagree with the loudest voices about immigration. At some visceral level, they believe that people who don't look or sound like them means the death of America. I think they're wrong about that, but I can't begrudge them their love of country. I love the country too, but I have a very different idea of what America means -- for me, what this country is about has very little to do with language and lineage.

For me, it's about a place -- if you're working hard and treating others well or at least leaving them alone -- where (as Pink Floyd put it) "no-one ever disappears, you never hear their standard issue kicking in your door." It's a place where you can rise or fail according to your own merit. You can practice the religion of your choice or no religion at all without the government hassling you about it. That kind of stuff.

[Anonymous]

“Oh, so now public school educations provided to US CITIZENS is a "hand out"?”

I am not the poster with the Italian family. I did not call public education a “hand out” but you were talking about immigrants’ payments outweighing the public benefits they get. Education is a public benefit and those young citizens would not be here if their parents were not here illegally so it is reasonable to attribute the costs to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Oh, so now public school educations provided to US CITIZENS is a "hand out"?”

I am not the poster with the Italian family. I did not call public education a “hand out” but you were talking about immigrants’ payments outweighing the public benefits they get. Education is a public benefit and those young citizens would not be here if their parents were not here illegally so it is reasonable to attribute the costs to them.

But those young citizens end up contributing net more to the economy than 2nd generation kids, so the investment is worth it. When the PP talked about immigrants today being lazy and getting "hand outs," unlike his hard-working Italian grandfather, he was painting a picture of immigrants who come here and take, and contribute nothing. And that is far from what the data show-- and I doubt his Italian grandfather & father skipped public schooling.

As for those 1st gen kids not being here -- most likely they WOULD be here if we had a rational immigration policy. Because otherwise we would be a faltering population, like Japan, if we completely closed our door to immigrants. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/japan-immigration-bill-ageing-society-economic-survival-isolationism-resistant-to-change-a8656366.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/andrew-sullivan-democrats-are-in-a-bubble-on-immigration.html

I completely agree with the gist of this. All of the Democratic candidates pretty much agree that a tightening of asylum law is not needed. They're willing to put illegal immigrants (all of them) on a path to U.S. citizenship. And this is exactly why I won't be voting for a Democrat in 2020.

"What emerged was their core message to the world: Get here without papers and you’ll receive humane treatment while you’re processed, you’ll never be detained, you’ll get work permits immediately, and you’ll have access to publicly funded health care and a path to citizenship if you don’t commit a crime. This amounts to an open invitation to anyone on the planet to just show up and cross the border. The worst that can happen is you get denied asylum by a judge, in which case you can just disappear and there’s a 1 percent chance that you’ll be caught in a given year. Who wouldn’t take those odds?"

It’s possible that America does in fact want open borders. I highly doubt it, I haven’t trusted the lame stream media for a very long time, and they’re usually wrong, and they love open borders, soooo....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/06/andrew-sullivan-democrats-are-in-a-bubble-on-immigration.html

I completely agree with the gist of this. All of the Democratic candidates pretty much agree that a tightening of asylum law is not needed. They're willing to put illegal immigrants (all of them) on a path to U.S. citizenship. And this is exactly why I won't be voting for a Democrat in 2020.

"What emerged was their core message to the world: Get here without papers and you’ll receive humane treatment while you’re processed, you’ll never be detained, you’ll get work permits immediately, and you’ll have access to publicly funded health care and a path to citizenship if you don’t commit a crime. This amounts to an open invitation to anyone on the planet to just show up and cross the border. The worst that can happen is you get denied asylum by a judge, in which case you can just disappear and there’s a 1 percent chance that you’ll be caught in a given year. Who wouldn’t take those odds?"

It’s possible that America does in fact want open borders. I highly doubt it, I haven’t trusted the lame stream media for a very long time, and they’re usually wrong, and they love open borders, soooo....

Well said. This country will never put an open border deranged Democrat in the White House. Never.

So start FIGHTING to SECURE our border.