UVA Gang rape

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

Well, have you looked for the data?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

Well, have you looked for the data?

Yes, some, but not exhaustively. I have found studies that break down demographics, but they're limited to one state (there's a decent one in TX). The do find that age of first activity is higher in 2009 than previous, but again, that's just one state. And shows that age of first activity is higher in lower income groups and for Blacks and non-white Hispanics than for Whites (article didn't say re Asians).
But like I said, that's one state. So who knows nationally. Your study is encouraging, but I think that unless you break down some demographics it doesn't tell me whether my kids are exposed to earlier sexual activity among peer groups than I was. (From their own reports, they are.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

Well, have you looked for the data?

Oh, actually I just read the study that your Guttmacher cite is based on, and it doesn't actually support your conclusion. It shows that age of first sexual experience is earlier now than it was for my cohort (compare people born in the 70s with people born in the 90s).
It's the article in the first footnote of that Guttmacher link, Figure 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

Well, have you looked for the data?

Yes, some, but not exhaustively. I have found studies that break down demographics, but they're limited to one state (there's a decent one in TX). The do find that age of first activity is higher in 2009 than previous, but again, that's just one state. And shows that age of first activity is higher in lower income groups and for Blacks and non-white Hispanics than for Whites (article didn't say re Asians).
But like I said, that's one state. So who knows nationally. Your study is encouraging, but I think that unless you break down some demographics it doesn't tell me whether my kids are exposed to earlier sexual activity among peer groups than I was. (From their own reports, they are.)

But none of this actually matters really, to this question. I suspect you and I are on the same side of the "rape culture" question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

Well, have you looked for the data?

Oh, actually I just read the study that your Guttmacher cite is based on, and it doesn't actually support your conclusion. It shows that age of first sexual experience is earlier now than it was for my cohort (compare people born in the 70s with people born in the 90s).
It's the article in the first footnote of that Guttmacher link, Figure 1.

PP here -- just want to let you know that this is not the same PP as was discussing this issue with you before. And I just looked at the study and I do think it supports your assertion. I just would like to see it broken down demographically, to see why it doesn't match up with what I'm seeing in my own little world.

[Anonymous]

Will you two shut up. What does your obsession with a sexual study have to do with gang rape at UVA? Go start your own boring thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will you two shut up. What does your obsession with a sexual study have to do with gang rape at UVA? Go start your own boring thread.

LOL!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I sort of agree with you, but I sort of don't. I think that the acceptance of sex as something that starts much earlier than it used to is partly responsible for the commodification of women as sex objects. I know it's always happened, but if you look at pop culture now, it's so focused on women and girls as sex objects, and with them not having value for any other reason, I think it's partly due to the fact that it's happening before kids have the intellectual maturity to realize that it's devaluing them.

I don't mean to be critical... this has been said over and over again for at least 30 years. We still have the exact same problems, so this dialog is not changing anything.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/31/rapebait-fraternity-georgia-tech_n_6082952.html Unfortunately nothing will change until people/fraternities/universities are sued.

This is disgusting. Thugs on every college campus disguised as preppy college smarty pants. They are just alcoholic rapists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:11:46, can you think of a time when women were treated respectfully, as autonomous human beings who had the right to control their own bodies?

11:46 here: No, not that I know of, not in our culture. BUT, I do think that actually at my college at least in the 90s, it was actually a time when women were treated respectfully as autonomous human beings with the right to control our own bodies. Now, I think my college was and still is probably much better than most. But it also was the case that when I was in high school and college, the average age of sexual activity was later than it is now. I feel like girls are getting the message much earlier that their sexuality is their value. And boys are getting that message about girls too. So they don't treat them as humans.

No, it actually wasn't. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802108/figure/F2/

That chart doesn't support you. The latest data in it are from over 10 years ago.

How about this?

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/FB-ATSRH.html#1

And if you don't like those data either, then please find some data that support the idea that the average age of first sexual activity is earlier now than in the 1990s.

No I DO like that one! It looks like it's comparing early '90s to 2006-2008. Not perfect, but it's at least somewhat persuasive. But I do know that the age of sex initiation in *my* peer group and culture versus in my kids' peer group and culture shows that it's gotten earlier during that time. This is also what my friend who's a pediatrician says she has seen in her patient population. So, while across the population as a whole it may have stayed steady or gotten later (which would be great), it does appear that among the college-bound upper-middle class kids, it's gotten earlier. From that very small small data set, that is. If there are statistics that actually break that down across different demographic groups, I'd love to see them.

What you have is not data. It's anecdotes.

Well, no, what I have is a very small data set. But I agree with you that it's not significant enough to answer the question I'm asking. Your data answers a broader question, which is helpful. I would love to see data that actually can answer it. I suspect it doesn't exist, at least not recently enough to be relevant.

NP. I can't figure out if you're a troll or just stupid. Or both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will you two shut up. What does your obsession with a sexual study have to do with gang rape at UVA? Go start your own boring thread.

Right on!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I sort of agree with you, but I sort of don't. I think that the acceptance of sex as something that starts much earlier than it used to is partly responsible for the commodification of women as sex objects. I know it's always happened, but if you look at pop culture now, it's so focused on women and girls as sex objects, and with them not having value for any other reason, I think it's partly due to the fact that it's happening before kids have the intellectual maturity to realize that it's devaluing them.

I don't mean to be critical... this has been said over and over again for at least 30 years. We still have the exact same problems, so this dialog is not changing anything.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/31/rapebait-fraternity-georgia-tech_n_6082952.html Unfortunately nothing will change until people/fraternities/universities are sued.

This is disgusting. Thugs on every college campus disguised as preppy college smarty pants. They are just alcoholic rapists.

So the question is, what do we do about this rape culture to change it?

It seems like exposure helps, but at what cost to the victim? I can guarantee you that Jackie was picked because she is probably a quiet girl (I don't know her) and they assumed that she would not go to the police.

The shame associated with being raped is what keeps women quiet, and we don't want to doubly expose them to abuse by making them publically judged.

This issue with UVA is a starting point, we have the university in charge of the sexual assaults and it's akin to having the fox watching the henhouse. No university wants to publicize their rape statistics, and I agree that this is probably a problem not just at UVA but at other colleges.

I don't think doing away with the greek system would make a difference, if anything a bunch of guys can rent a house together in any college town.

I don't have an answer, just throwing this out for discussion...

[Anonymous]

Bill should come into to consult

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I sort of agree with you, but I sort of don't. I think that the acceptance of sex as something that starts much earlier than it used to is partly responsible for the commodification of women as sex objects. I know it's always happened, but if you look at pop culture now, it's so focused on women and girls as sex objects, and with them not having value for any other reason, I think it's partly due to the fact that it's happening before kids have the intellectual maturity to realize that it's devaluing them.

I don't mean to be critical... this has been said over and over again for at least 30 years. We still have the exact same problems, so this dialog is not changing anything.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/31/rapebait-fraternity-georgia-tech_n_6082952.html Unfortunately nothing will change until people/fraternities/universities are sued.

This is disgusting. Thugs on every college campus disguised as preppy college smarty pants. They are just alcoholic rapists.

So the question is, what do we do about this rape culture to change it?

It seems like exposure helps, but at what cost to the victim? I can guarantee you that Jackie was picked because she is probably a quiet girl (I don't know her) and they assumed that she would not go to the police.

The shame associated with being raped is what keeps women quiet, and we don't want to doubly expose them to abuse by making them publically judged.

This issue with UVA is a starting point, we have the university in charge of the sexual assaults and it's akin to having the fox watching the henhouse. No university wants to publicize their rape statistics, and I agree that this is probably a problem not just at UVA but at other colleges.

I don't think doing away with the greek system would make a difference, if anything a bunch of guys can rent a house together in any college town.

I don't have an answer, just throwing this out for discussion...

That is the answer, though, right? There is a social stigma to sexual crimes, and abusers count on their victims not wanting to be stigmatized. (This applies to domestic violence, child molestation, date rape--any situation where the abuser is known to the victim, and often victimizes them repeatedly.) If victims started naming names, I think a lot of men would think twice. Not all of them. But some--especially the ones with a lot to lose.

I am not in any way blaming victims for NOT wanting to go public--this is society's problem to solve. There is too much bias/more concern about false accusation than underreporting, and victims are more likely to NOT be believed (see: Cosby, B.) than to be believed, but we all have to do a better job of creating a culture and systems that promote victim's rights.