New TJ Lawsuit Filed 3/10/21 by Pacific Legal Foundation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

[Anonymous]

But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

SUCH an important point. These kids give up activities and pursuits that they love dearly in order to chase their parents' dream of the TJ bumper sticker. And it works out for some of them, but for a staggering number it does not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While most posters on this forum are driven by a sense of propriety and not malice - casual anti-Asian racism can lead you here

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/16/us/metro-atlanta-shootings/index.html

Some pro FCPS admin posters here may not recognize their own casual anti-Asian racism, but they are perpetuating the same old racial stereotype and prejudice towards Asian communities. They don't really have any hard evidence to back up their assertion but they claimed things like "most TJ parents are here illegally", "far far too many TJ kids having mental health issues", "they cheat and prep", etc. In today's environment causal racism is deadly. Before spewing out your own prejudice ask yourself if you have real data to back it up.

It's sad that you are using this tragedy to make your keep TJ it is argument. SMH.

What is sad is how the “reformers” are following the Trumpian approach to make their majoritarian argument. Mexicans are rapists and Asians are one-dimensional cheaters. Stereotypes and name calling is the way to go. George Floyd was an isolated tragedy - how uncouth of you to use a tragedy to trigger a discussion on systemic racism. Deny the problem. Ignore leading indicators that point to anti-minority sentiment.

There is clearly reform needed on TJ admissions but the current approach is how poll taxes were used to bypass the fifteenth amendment. The new method gets the outcome the School Board needs and in the larger scheme of things equity vis-a-vis Asians is affordable collateral damage.

This is nonsense on about ten different levels. The only reason this conversation is even tangentially about Asians is because they are over represented in the TJ community by a factor of about 3.5-4.

You don’t get to cry “equity” when the likely upshot of all of this is that you become a slightly less dominant majority.

Kids at TJ (of all races) graduate with significant deficiencies in cultural fluency because they exist in a homogeneous space. That was the case when TJ was 60% white, and it remains the case now that TJ is 70+% Asian.

What you’re upset about is that the new process makes it more difficult to exert parental influence and resources on the process, and you believe you’re entitled to that advantage because you care more about TJ from an earlier age than other parents.

But the reality is, both the kids who get in to TJ with this new process and the kids who DON’T get in because of this new process will exist in spaces that are far more likely to produce positive educational environments and outcomes for the respective students.

I, and many others, disagree with pretty much everything you just said. You are also disparaging TJ graduates and could not be more wrong about their cultural fluency. This forum is packed full of complainers that know nothing about the school other than the fact that their little Larlo couldn't get in because he isn't as bright as mommy and daddy thought he was.

The staggering lack of cultural fluency displayed by the folks claiming to be TJ parents on this form kinda proves my point. The apple, as it were, doesn’t fall too far from the tree.

But unless you’ve had dozens of conversations with TJ graduates centering around how different it is to be around kids who don’t look like them in college, kindly have a seat. They know they’re sheltered. And they know they’re brought up with racist attitudes - white kids too, big time, btw. They suffer from the lack of representation as well.

Lord help me if I ever name any kids I have Larlo. I’ll admit that’s amusing.

Who needs STEM when we can just have PP give lectures on Kendi and “cultural literacy”?

Believe it or not, you can have both! And they complement each other beautifully

How does that increase STEM scores and abilities?

Scores, probably not, but no one who matters cares about those anymore.

Abilities, absolutely. With an improvement in demographic representation in STEM, we probably won't have facial recognition software come out that can't tell the difference between Black people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

[Anonymous]

So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the point stands ... those kids who found the test easy and did not prep for it are at a disadvantage in this as the focus for selection has moved to geography (as a proxy for race) and life challeneges.

The introduction of a new metric does not immediately make it a focus. The Admissions Office would be insane not to maintain academic aptitude as the primary focus of their selection mechanism.

The students who found the test easy will benefit greatly from no longer being lumped in with the students who got the same scores as they did by prepping.

For the record, I do agree strongly that removing the teacher recs was a mistake. Even though they can be subject to bias, that can be accounted for when comparing them across populations and they provide a crucial window into the student's actual performance in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Do we have a break down of the number of kids who prep and don't? We know the prep centers list their success stories. I get that there are kids who do not attend these programs but I would guess that at least half of the kids attending TJ attended a prep program. I would not be surprised to find that the 50% number is low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

But “they” will be a bunch of FCPS employees with limited skills as admissions officers making decisions with an eye towards pleasing their School Board masters with lawyers looking over their shoulders at every turn.

FCPS can’t get kids back in school on a timely basis. And it bungles every boundary change it considers - just look at the recent Langley/McLean change where they took four years to make a decision and then ended up doing the exact opposite of what they’d said was their goal. But somehow they are going to do a great job with a “holistic” review of TJ applications and put the admissions departments of Harvard and Stanford to shame.

This will be an even bigger mess than it was already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Do we have a break down of the number of kids who prep and don't? We know the prep centers list their success stories. I get that there are kids who do not attend these programs but I would guess that at least half of the kids attending TJ attended a prep program. I would not be surprised to find that the 50% number is low.

Not really a way to get that data. Prep is simultaneously something that huge numbers of students do, but also that most students do not want to admit to. There's no motivation to answer that question honestly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the large numbers of kids who did not need to prep for that test (including Asians) and found it easy now have a much lower chance of admissions. Those are the kids who end up loving TJ.

Disagree completely. I don't believe those students will have any more difficulty at all getting in to TJ. The ones who will are the ones who used test prep to improve their chances to get in by misrepresenting their natural ability.

Curious about your thinking—there are no teacher recs, no 99th percentile scores to factor in. Meanwhile slots are taken up by school minimums and extra points given to experience factors that have no connection to stem or academics.

What they are looking for is kids who have performed exceptionally well under their circumstances, which shows grit, determination, and response to adversity. Those are all indicators that point very strongly to success in elite academic environments.

But “they” will be a bunch of FCPS employees with limited skills as admissions officers making decisions with an eye towards pleasing their School Board masters with lawyers looking over their shoulders at every turn.

FCPS can’t get kids back in school on a timely basis. And it bungles every boundary change it considers - just look at the recent Langley/McLean change where they took four years to make a decision and then ended up doing the exact opposite of what they’d said was their goal. But somehow they are going to do a great job with a “holistic” review of TJ applications and put the admissions departments of Harvard and Stanford to shame.

This will be an even bigger mess than it was already.

Kinda moved the goalposts here. No one reasonable is expecting them to do the job of Harvard or Stanford - this is after all just TJ admissions. But that office does know what they're doing despite the limited resources.

The admissions committee is going to review the applications and make recommendations based on the narrative that the total application constructs. What they're not going to do is bring a bunch of kids in who are manifestly unprepared for the TJ experience - any more than they do already. One of the things that we have to remember is that the effectiveness of exam prep allows families to pose their students as being more prepared than they really are.

I do not believe that the School Board is looking for this to be a one-year process - where they go to a new evaluation method and then BOOM the demographics immediately change. There will be adjustments next year as COVID relief allows for possibilities that didn't exist the previous year. They may bring back teacher recommendations if they decide the narrative is too thin - easier to do next year when teachers hopefully are not juggling a hybrid learning process.

What you should see this year is somewhat of a movement in a direction that the School Board and reform advocates like - let's say from 3% students from underrepresented groups to 6-8% - and then hopefully that small shift results in greater interest from those schools and communities as they are inspired by their kids going to TJ and enjoying success (and hopefully being treated much better than they are now).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gaming the test is a red herring. If that's the issue, the solution couldn't be any easier. FCPS just needs to release past tests for everyone to practice. One highly respected math teacher even offered to write new tests.

What Varsity Blue cheating scandal showed is that the test is actually not that easy to game. The test is one objective measure that levels the playing field. Famous Hollywood actors had to pay $$$ to someone to cheat. The kids from the poorest neighborhood can achieve a high score by working hard. And the rich kids with all the money and resources couldn't do it on their own. And the small samples of Varsity Blue showed the stereotype perpetuated here that a certain community cheats is not true.

It's not a red herring when 25 percent of students admitted to TJ in one class came from one test center that charges thousands of dollars. Getting rid of the test gets rid of the bias towards those with resources to spend thousands on test prep. There are Asian kids in Eastern Fairfax that can't spend that and who will benefit under the new system.

+1

I also don’t think we should be expecting CHILDREN to sacrifice any aspect of their childhood in order to do test prep to try to get into a public high school. The children are the ones who are losing here, and the test prep companies making loads of money and profiting off the system are the winners. Why are so many people intent on being pawns on this system?

The reality is that the push for college has led to parents choosing a variety of paths that emphasize one particular skill set and sacrifice others. For some parents it is STEM at all costs hoping for TJ or scholarships into top ranked Engineering Colleges. For some parents it is a sport at all costs. Don't kid yourself, travel sports are as time intensive and focused as STEM at all costs (math classes, extra curricular activities, and practice at home).

Travel sports involve extra practices, extra time in the weight room, and lots of pressure. I played indoor soccer on a team that ended up with two 16 year old girls on the team. We had put our team on the list for needing more female players. This team was the girls 3rd team. Their parents saw it as a way to get the girls playing against physically stronger competition and help their girls develop toughness. The Moms were at every game and the girls were great kids but it was weird. We had to flat out tell their Moms that we didn't think they should be playing games that started at 10 PM because they had school.

Both sets of parents want the best for their kids and both would argue they are just pushing their kids to utilize their talents. Both have seen entire new markets spring up to support their desires to push their kids to be the best in academics or sports. Both will defend those systems to the death because they see it as that important to their kids needs and futures. Both are a minority within the larger society.

TJ will be just fine with more kids coming, or having the opportunity to come, from lesser represented Middle Schools. No amount of conversation is going to convince parents who put a massive amount of time and money into their kids attending TJ, or playing elite level travel sports, that it is an awful change and being done to punish their kids.