Weird situation with new neighbor from high school - WWYD

[Anonymous]

If you think it is normal to approach someone's kids who don't know you and complain about their mother, you need to get your head examined. This woman has a screw loose. Sorry if she was bullied. I have no idea what happened way back when. All we know if that she approached OP's kids and talked to them about it. That is behavior of someone who is unhinged. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you think that the neighbor might be on DCUM?
If so, would love to hear her side of the story.

What was Jess like in High School? How did she treat you? What specifically do you remember?

This reminded me of a recent (past few months) post by a bullied woman who wanted to ask advice on approaching a bully of hers in denial. She was upset the woman didn't remember.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Larla, I don't remember interacting with you in high school. I'm happy to have a conversation one on one, and discuss what you recall regarding our interactions from then. If, in fact, I did something wrong towards you, I'm willing to discuss and try to resolve. However, I need you to stay away from my children in the interim. I'm not comfortable with you approaching them when I am not around to discuss your concerns with me in high school. That's not appropriate, and it needs to stop."

Something like this.

OP, either decide to be civil, or don't engage - but the gossiping will only make you look bad. You don't want to be the neighborhood mean girl, because then everyone will know you were the one who bullied back when (and probably never grew up).

I do agree that the neighbor should not have approached your kids (she should have just kept going).

Here's the problem: there are adults/kids who think you are obligated to be their friend (trying to force your kid to hang out with their kid, which of course does their kid no favors!), there are adults/kids who think that they have a "right" to be in your group (I have seen moms of high school aged girls try to wedge their daughter into a group the mom wants their daughter to be in - clearly giving new meaning to living vicariously/overcompensating for the mom's "awful" childhood - instead of the mom getting much needed therapy), and there are also adults/kids who think it is their God given right to be rude (age old typical mean girl behavior from moms who never grew up, and are socially stunted, and can't manage a civil hello - because "what will be demanded of them next - EGADS!!"). None are the proper, civilized reaction. Don't be one of those moms, everyone knows who they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if OP actually bullied the girl she'd remember it. Don't you remember who was called which names in your school? I could tell you to this day.

More likely that OP (and her friends) excluded and ignored the girl, which hurt her feelings. Maybe they even dismissed her in a mean way when she tried to join their group, or said she wasn't their friend. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if OP has no recollection but the other girl is scarred.

And even if OP called her a pig-face, shoved her in a locker, and left gum on her seat - going up to OP's minor children with this is out of line and unhinged.

Excluding and ignoring is bullying. Look up relational aggression. This sort of bullying is incredibly painful and dangerous. And, because people like you dismiss it as normal, it’s more likely to lead to the kind of trauma that might cause someone serious mental health issues, including PTSD that could lead someone to behave as this woman has. I’m not justifying this woman’s choice to involve OP’s kids— that’s 100% not okay. But the idea that OP didn’t bully because she didn’t call this woman a name is silly.

Relational aggression is brutal. Humans are social pack animals. Exclusion, ostracism, and isolation can result in intense feelings if fear and shame. Especially during teen years when emotions are heightened due to hormonal shifts and people often lack emotional coping skills (which we only recently started teaching children with more intention). There are people who have committed or attempted suicide because of relational aggression— being the subject of hurtful rumors, being excluded without explanation, the sort of passive-aggressive cruelty that teen girls are often experts at (the backhanded compliment, sh*t stirring gossip). That can feel far worse than being called a name or shoved in a locker, which is much more likely to inspire adults to get involved or result in the bully being held accountable.

So the solution is what? Invite everyone to everything? Never say no to an acquaintances advances or overtures? This isn’t realistic or advisable. Something is off with the neighbor and even teenage OP sensed it. Are we not to trust our own instincts anymore lest we exclude someone?

If you think your options are "invite everyone" or engage in cliquish, exclusive behavior, then that's the problem. There is a middle ground where people select their own social groups without excluding and ostracizing people.

The difference is in how you handle it. If you are having a party and only inviting some people from school/work/the neighborhood, then don't talk about that party all the time with people who aren't invited. And in HS, exclusive and cliquish behavior often takes the form of refusing to work on group projects with someone outside your group, or excluding kids at school events where everyone actually is invited. No one is suggesting that you have to be friends with everyone. There's also a difference between saying "Yeah, Helen and I aren't really friends. I don't know her that well," and "Helen sucks, oh my go I hope she doesn't come to this party. Have you noticed how her hair is always a little... greasy? Yuck."

A lot of adults lack these skills too so they don't call out this behavior in kids (plus many adults are plagued by the same insecurities that cause this kind of in group/out group behavior in teens, and will project their insecurities onto their kids, often making it worse). But that doesn't mean it's okay or that it's not hurtful. Especially because often the way these cliques form is that kids with existing social advantages (money, good looks, excel in school or sports, etc.) gravitate towards each other. Which is fine and normal! But they should also be learning kindness and humility so that hanging out with their friends doesn't have to be a performative activity they do specifically to make others jealous.

I know this will fall on deaf ears and I'll be told this is unreasonable. But it's actually fundamental to a functional society -- if you treat people as though they don't deserve basic kindness and respect, don't be surprised when they do weird or uncomfortable things like tell your kids that you bullied them in school. It's a classic "fk around and find out" situation. OP is finding out.

It is pretty rich to expect children to be better at this than adults. Come on. Also, while your example is fine, the issue in high school is the perceived power dynamics. Each group did this to others. I recall vividly the jocks doing this about the “stoners”, and vice versa. But it is only deemed “bullying” when it’s the social circle that the alleged victim wants to join. Rumors are far more often spread about those perceived to be in positions of power also because those are the people everyone knows. This is all about jockeying for position. Rules are nebulous. The point is that it is highly unlikely the alleged victim would have felt bullied if she had not been trying to join this social group. It’s likely there were groups she did not want to join that wanted her to join. And so it goes.

You are describing a high school hellscape that could absolutely traumatize someone, and not just because they had the apparently bad manners to want to join a social group above their assigned status. JFC.

I expect adults to be better than this. I expect kids to be better than this. We are not apes. We live in a society.

What are you even talking about? How is not being invited to everything you want to be a “hellscape”? You are straight up delusional and unreasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think if OP actually bullied the girl she'd remember it. Don't you remember who was called which names in your school? I could tell you to this day.

More likely that OP (and her friends) excluded and ignored the girl, which hurt her feelings. Maybe they even dismissed her in a mean way when she tried to join their group, or said she wasn't their friend. In this case I wouldn't be surprised if OP has no recollection but the other girl is scarred.

And even if OP called her a pig-face, shoved her in a locker, and left gum on her seat - going up to OP's minor children with this is out of line and unhinged.

Excluding and ignoring is bullying. Look up relational aggression. This sort of bullying is incredibly painful and dangerous. And, because people like you dismiss it as normal, it’s more likely to lead to the kind of trauma that might cause someone serious mental health issues, including PTSD that could lead someone to behave as this woman has. I’m not justifying this woman’s choice to involve OP’s kids— that’s 100% not okay. But the idea that OP didn’t bully because she didn’t call this woman a name is silly.

Relational aggression is brutal. Humans are social pack animals. Exclusion, ostracism, and isolation can result in intense feelings if fear and shame. Especially during teen years when emotions are heightened due to hormonal shifts and people often lack emotional coping skills (which we only recently started teaching children with more intention). There are people who have committed or attempted suicide because of relational aggression— being the subject of hurtful rumors, being excluded without explanation, the sort of passive-aggressive cruelty that teen girls are often experts at (the backhanded compliment, sh*t stirring gossip). That can feel far worse than being called a name or shoved in a locker, which is much more likely to inspire adults to get involved or result in the bully being held accountable.

So the solution is what? Invite everyone to everything? Never say no to an acquaintances advances or overtures? This isn’t realistic or advisable. Something is off with the neighbor and even teenage OP sensed it. Are we not to trust our own instincts anymore lest we exclude someone?

If you think your options are "invite everyone" or engage in cliquish, exclusive behavior, then that's the problem. There is a middle ground where people select their own social groups without excluding and ostracizing people.

The difference is in how you handle it. If you are having a party and only inviting some people from school/work/the neighborhood, then don't talk about that party all the time with people who aren't invited. And in HS, exclusive and cliquish behavior often takes the form of refusing to work on group projects with someone outside your group, or excluding kids at school events where everyone actually is invited. No one is suggesting that you have to be friends with everyone. There's also a difference between saying "Yeah, Helen and I aren't really friends. I don't know her that well," and "Helen sucks, oh my go I hope she doesn't come to this party. Have you noticed how her hair is always a little... greasy? Yuck."

A lot of adults lack these skills too so they don't call out this behavior in kids (plus many adults are plagued by the same insecurities that cause this kind of in group/out group behavior in teens, and will project their insecurities onto their kids, often making it worse). But that doesn't mean it's okay or that it's not hurtful. Especially because often the way these cliques form is that kids with existing social advantages (money, good looks, excel in school or sports, etc.) gravitate towards each other. Which is fine and normal! But they should also be learning kindness and humility so that hanging out with their friends doesn't have to be a performative activity they do specifically to make others jealous.

I know this will fall on deaf ears and I'll be told this is unreasonable. But it's actually fundamental to a functional society -- if you treat people as though they don't deserve basic kindness and respect, don't be surprised when they do weird or uncomfortable things like tell your kids that you bullied them in school. It's a classic "fk around and find out" situation. OP is finding out.

It is pretty rich to expect children to be better at this than adults. Come on. Also, while your example is fine, the issue in high school is the perceived power dynamics. Each group did this to others. I recall vividly the jocks doing this about the “stoners”, and vice versa. But it is only deemed “bullying” when it’s the social circle that the alleged victim wants to join. Rumors are far more often spread about those perceived to be in positions of power also because those are the people everyone knows. This is all about jockeying for position. Rules are nebulous. The point is that it is highly unlikely the alleged victim would have felt bullied if she had not been trying to join this social group. It’s likely there were groups she did not want to join that wanted her to join. And so it goes.

You are describing a high school hellscape that could absolutely traumatize someone, and not just because they had the apparently bad manners to want to join a social group above their assigned status. JFC.

I expect adults to be better than this. I expect kids to be better than this. We are not apes. We live in a society.

What are you even talking about? How is not being invited to everything you want to be a “hellscape”? You are straight up delusional and unreasonable.

+1

Make your own friends. They are likely much more fun than the neighborhood mean girls. Teach your kids to do the same. Done.

[Anonymous]

I can’t believe people are being so mean to OP.

OP your neighbor is a lunatic. Even if you inadvertently or purposely hurt her feelings 20+ years ago, she should not be sharing that with neighbors and your kids unless they ask about the past connection.

Unfortunately for this new neighbor, she is going to get herself branded as a weirdo who has no social skills or filter. And then - surprise! - she is going to think the fact that she hasn’t formed relationship in the neighborhood is due to OP when it’s really due to her lack of social skills.

I hope new neighbor gets the help she needs to make peace with past grievances and learn how to socialize. It’s not a stretch to imagine how someone who acts like that as an adult might have been excluded or perceived as a weirdo growing up.

I say all of this as a frequently awkward, never popular person who at least has enough sense to act “normal” when needed.

[Anonymous]

It is very hard to square these responses with the universal distaste for neuro a typical children rampant on these boards. Take a look within. I’ve seen countless posts re not including such children in classrooms, camps, and certainly nor social activities. Don’t act so outraged.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you were snobby and exclusive towards her.

You and your friends considered her “socially awkward” and were exclusive to her. She was probably just trying to be friendly and your friends interpreted that as her pushing her self into situations where she was t welcome. Because you were too cool to hang out with her.

And she remembers that you were snobby and mean and exclusive.

There were girls like that in my high school class. I would hate to live near them or work near them because they would bring up bad feelings.

So yeah, you were a mean girl in high school and now it’s coming back to bite you.

Can’t say I feel sorry for you.

What's ironic is that the mean girl and a gal the mean girls thought was beneath them ended up in the same neighborhood, i.e. same level of professional and social status. That has to burn the washed up mean girl OP. I'm guessing the other mean girl friends OP reached out to are more successful and married better, so they're onward and upward, while OP has to toil amongst people she thought she was better than. Ouch.

[Anonymous]

We grew up in the most affluent school district in our state in the 80s and 90s and the upper classmen girls were obscenely vicious to freshman. My older sister, who was super cute and polite, was legit tormented and nobody cared. The stories are so bad they sound fake, yet at the time it was just shrugged off as standard freshman hazing/hijinx. My sister was cute and ended up being popular in high school, so it wasn't even like she was some outcast weirdo they targeted. She went to Duke and became a lawyer and married a rich entrepreneur, but I know that bullying during 9th grade is still a sore spot – and why her children are private school lifers.

(Our parents made me transfer to a private high school to avoid that crap.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds like you were snobby and exclusive towards her.

You and your friends considered her “socially awkward” and were exclusive to her. She was probably just trying to be friendly and your friends interpreted that as her pushing her self into situations where she was t welcome. Because you were too cool to hang out with her.

And she remembers that you were snobby and mean and exclusive.

There were girls like that in my high school class. I would hate to live near them or work near them because they would bring up bad feelings.

So yeah, you were a mean girl in high school and now it’s coming back to bite you.

Can’t say I feel sorry for you.

What's ironic is that the mean girl and a gal the mean girls thought was beneath them ended up in the same neighborhood, i.e. same level of professional and social status. That has to burn the washed up mean girl OP. I'm guessing the other mean girl friends OP reached out to are more successful and married better, so they're onward and upward, while OP has to toil amongst people she thought she was better than. Ouch.

So life isn’t really like Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion. You need a new revenge fantasy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you think that the neighbor might be on DCUM?
If so, would love to hear her side of the story.

What was Jess like in High School? How did she treat you? What specifically do you remember?

This reminded me of a recent (past few months) post by a bullied woman who wanted to ask advice on approaching a bully of hers in denial. She was upset the woman didn't remember.

This is basically the plot of Margaret Atwood's novel, Cats Eye, isn't it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We grew up in the most affluent school district in our state in the 80s and 90s and the upper classmen girls were obscenely vicious to freshman. My older sister, who was super cute and polite, was legit tormented and nobody cared. The stories are so bad they sound fake, yet at the time it was just shrugged off as standard freshman hazing/hijinx. My sister was cute and ended up being popular in high school, so it wasn't even like she was some outcast weirdo they targeted. She went to Duke and became a lawyer and married a rich entrepreneur, but I know that bullying during 9th grade is still a sore spot – and why her children are private school lifers.

(Our parents made me transfer to a private high school to avoid that crap.)

Exact same experience for me but I was in a blue collar town and my dad ran one of the factories. It was awful. I am taking pee poured on clothes awful. Shit smeared on things. Verbal taunts at lunch. Vandalism of home and cars. The hazing was out of control. I also went to good schools married a lawyer am a lawyer etc. I actually don’t harbor many bad feelings toward the women, most of whom are still in our small town and have lives I do not envy. I am very angry ar the adults that allowed it to occur. They must have known.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We grew up in the most affluent school district in our state in the 80s and 90s and the upper classmen girls were obscenely vicious to freshman. My older sister, who was super cute and polite, was legit tormented and nobody cared. The stories are so bad they sound fake, yet at the time it was just shrugged off as standard freshman hazing/hijinx. My sister was cute and ended up being popular in high school, so it wasn't even like she was some outcast weirdo they targeted. She went to Duke and became a lawyer and married a rich entrepreneur, but I know that bullying during 9th grade is still a sore spot – and why her children are private school lifers.

(Our parents made me transfer to a private high school to avoid that crap.)

This. A lot of what people thought was "normal hazing" behavior 30 years ago would absolutely horrify even many of these posters who think whatever OP did must have been no big deal. Bullying used to be incredibly common. And the idea that it was just the weird or awkward kids who got bullies is false. My experience in the 90s in HS was that the kid most likely to get bullied was an invited member of a group that people kept around specifically because they liked having someone to pick on and put on. I was not that kid, thankfully, but I can still name them. The issue was never about not getting invited to things. It was about being invited and then expected to kiss up to the more popular kids in the group. And also having people roll their eyes at things these kids would say or turn that person's name into a punchline. People would keep it light and friendly and if someone acted hurt, they'd say "oh we're just kidding around" or "we joke because we love you" but that doesn't make this behavior okay.

The idea that this must be about this woman wanting to join some group in HS and not being able to and that's it just doesn't ring true to me. I didn't even go to a high school with rampant bullying -- this was the mid-90s and around the time that schools were starting to try and really figure out bullying and change the culture to address this behavior, so it was a lot better than it could have been. But kids are immature and can be cruel. I am actually surprised at how many people are certain that OP must not have done anything wrong. I think this is a "both" situation OP almost certainly did something worth apologizing for, whether she remembers it or not, and this woman also needs to stay away from OPs kids and probably get some mental health attention to address what's going on because she's handling it badly. I don't really see a side to take here other than to remember to talk to my own kid about why it's important to always treat others with dignity and kindness, even if you don't personally like them, even if you are just telling them you don't want to hang out with them. You can do it gently, and they will remember your gentleness even if in the moment your actions sting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds like you were snobby and exclusive towards her.

You and your friends considered her “socially awkward” and were exclusive to her. She was probably just trying to be friendly and your friends interpreted that as her pushing her self into situations where she was t welcome. Because you were too cool to hang out with her.

And she remembers that you were snobby and mean and exclusive.

There were girls like that in my high school class. I would hate to live near them or work near them because they would bring up bad feelings.

So yeah, you were a mean girl in high school and now it’s coming back to bite you.

Can’t say I feel sorry for you.

What's ironic is that the mean girl and a gal the mean girls thought was beneath them ended up in the same neighborhood, i.e. same level of professional and social status. That has to burn the washed up mean girl OP. I'm guessing the other mean girl friends OP reached out to are more successful and married better, so they're onward and upward, while OP has to toil amongst people she thought she was better than. Ouch.

+1

Nailed it.

Mean girl is stunted, probably hasn't moved out of her home town, and is crying about the new neighbor with bigger boobs: "SHE is going DOWN!!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We grew up in the most affluent school district in our state in the 80s and 90s and the upper classmen girls were obscenely vicious to freshman. My older sister, who was super cute and polite, was legit tormented and nobody cared. The stories are so bad they sound fake, yet at the time it was just shrugged off as standard freshman hazing/hijinx. My sister was cute and ended up being popular in high school, so it wasn't even like she was some outcast weirdo they targeted. She went to Duke and became a lawyer and married a rich entrepreneur, but I know that bullying during 9th grade is still a sore spot – and why her children are private school lifers.

(Our parents made me transfer to a private high school to avoid that crap.)

Exact same experience for me but I was in a blue collar town and my dad ran one of the factories. It was awful. I am taking pee poured on clothes awful. Shit smeared on things. Verbal taunts at lunch. Vandalism of home and cars. The hazing was out of control. I also went to good schools married a lawyer am a lawyer etc. I actually don’t harbor many bad feelings toward the women, most of whom are still in our small town and have lives I do not envy. I am very angry ar the adults that allowed it to occur. They must have known.

Oh and the big trigger why I was targeted is that a lot of their “boyfriends” liked me. I wasn’t even interested. I will say, because I was considered cute and “popular”, when I was a senior, we did none of that. We’d learned. Interestingly, a group of girls that were definite fringe by choice - smoking outside school, combat boots, etc., - took it upon themselves to terrorize the freshmen. Efforts to stop it and involve the actual adults were fruitless.