What about this as a breach of trust?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He just said if you force his hand, you will LOSE in a contest with pot. It really doesn't matter what you insert in the place of pot, that's unacceptable. How can you go to therapy when he has told you one of your biggest issues has to be taken off the table?! I'm sorry, but this is over. Start planning your exit.

I got divorced 15 years ago over this very issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it a breach of trust? Technically, no. But it's a dick move to have your therapist say the things you can't say for yourself (yet), and not even be present so that your spouse could discuss them.

Fire your therapist. S/he sounds like trouble. And the next time you want to bring up a big issue, at least be present.

OP here - therapist only said to him in their session that I was conflicted about the issue. Nothing more was said. He knows I'm conflicted because I've told him that time and time again over the course of our marriage, but have made concessions I wasn't comfortable with (and that I said I wasn't confirtsble with). That's on me. What I hope for is open and honest dialogue where our respective concerns and needs are clearly communicated, heard and respected. Neither of us is particularly good at that - we need help - and not just on this issue. Enter the couples sessions. I have a lot of hope for us, but also a lot of anxiety and fear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The custody won't be complicated. You will get the kids.

yep "stay at home" dad who smokes pot all day? You can write your own terms. Although it would suck if you wound up paying that lazy ass spousal support

It's complicated because I would rather not play that card, I want his children to have a full, loving, relationship with a present father. I don't want it to be ugly because our children are beautiful. But yes, I think it's probably right that if it came down to it, I would get custody. And would also probably be on the hook for spousal support.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you think. Breach of trust? Or perhaps more importantly, is it time to go? I would like to give it one last shot in couples therapy, but my spouse said this issue is not open for discussion with the therapist. Period.

Sorry in advance for typos and length. I just feel numb by this exchange. Just happened tonight. Any and all thoughts welcomed.

Whoa, lady...where to start...

First, no, it's not a breach of trust, or rather: it is a violation but ordinarily wouldn't matter since therapy sessions are generally completely confidential (I don't believe marijuana use is a mandatory reporter situation), and ordinarily your individual therapist would not have a meeting with your husband "in preparation for couples therapy". Your therapist might meet with him, with your permission, to discuss your therapy and your condition. I think your therapist is way out on the ethical edge here - so if there's a breach, it's there. Yes, many many many people find a spouse, sibling, child, parent going to therapy deeply threatening because they know the client is "talking about them". The issue here is your therapist talking to him about it and inserting themselves into this. Really sketchy. Of course, some therapists take sides.

You sound like you have major issues; it's possible your husband is toking up like a fiend because he's self-medicating. Every hardcore pot smoker ("addict") I've ever seen is self-medicating (just like you taking lexapro) - it's entirely possible that trying to live with you is driving him to this - remove you from his life, maybe he comes back down. The inverse is also possible. Both things are possible (likely).

I'd say, regardless of the blame game, that the two of you are in an awful, toxic dance. I'd say it's time to split up. I also say Pot is way preferable to Lexapro.

Hmmm. Well, I trust my therapist. The session was not just to discuss my therapy and progress - we already did a session like that. I don't sense that she is taking sides per se. But I see how it could be viewed that way. It was a risky move to mention it without me there. And he isn't the patient - I am. That said, she and I asked if he would be willing to work in couples therapy -- he said yes. So I don't know once you say that you are good with doing couples work what the ethical edge is here that you are talking about.

No, I don't think so - it's pretty much unethical for her to have you as the patient and then start couples therapy with both of you. She should have referred you both to a different therapist for the couples therapy. That's pretty cut-and-dried. After however many sessions with you alone, she's got a highly biased view of him. There is nothing wrong with you all doing couples therapy with a different therapist and her continuing to see her as your patient. This is exactly what I'm talking about, to a T.

But yes, this approach had/has the potential to have backfired.[/quote}

Well, this isn't just a backfire, it's a flat out ambush. I'm not surprised he feels highly violated, whether or not it's a "breach" for you to discuss his substance use/abuse in your sessions with her. and she's taking on your role or becoming your advocate and delivering your ultimatums for you.

That said, I've tried everything else so this is my last effort.

Fine, just leave. Tell him yourself you're done, it's no longer tolerable and you're leaving. Separate. Perhaps that will deliver the wakeup call he needs to stop toking up constantly, and perhaps you all can reconcile.

It's not that I'm not ready to talk to him about this issue - we have talked about this issue. At length. But my needs/concerns are dismissed as "paranoid", "Gestapo" and out of line because I knew he was a heavy smoker before we got married. And I've always caved because it has been presented as a non-starter -- he will not change.

Yeah, well honestly, not a lot of sympathy here for your position: you admit you knew full well exactly who he is and what his substance use patterns were before you married him...and yet you did it anyway. Either you expected him to change from the beginning and didn't really accept him (in which case, nobody to blame but yourself) or you've decided that now that you can't change him, you're gonna call in the therapist to arm-twist him for you. Cowardly and manipulative, IMO. I'm reminded of the old saw "men marry expecting their wives to never change, and women marry expecting to change their husbands".

I'm not a toker (used to be 20 years ago), and I'm not saying you need to stay in a situation you've decided you can't tolerate. If being around him is bad for your well-being, then you have to leave. Good for you. Do it. Own it. Say your feelings about the smoking have changed. Don't make it his fault (which is what this is about). Believe me, it will feel better to own the decision yourself.

BTW, he was smoking at these levels before we married (though the obsession around it has increased since then in that it is simply all he talks about these days - growing acceptance of pot as a recreational drug only adds fuel to that fire). So I don't think I'm the reason for the self-medication -- though, admittedly, I'm no angel and certainly have not always been easy to be married to.

Look, I have had an up close and personal look at two people who had serious issues, which they attempted to solve by toking up incessantly. One was a friend/acquaintance (no longer because he really was falling apart and just not cool to be around - and I used to toke up with him), and the other is a cousin, who has real and significant mental health issues, which he attempts to address with weed. Both are in a downhill spiral (well, I have no idea what happened to the one I lost touch with in the mid-90s). I'm not defending becoming a stoner and I don't think you should have to put up with it if you don't want to.

My point wasn't so much to blame you except to get you jarred out of this blame/control mode. I have no doubt that between children and a spouse who had a breakdown, he's got a lot of external stress...and probably feels shitty about being unemployed(un-employable?). Those aren't excuses to spend all day stoned, but drop the stone-throwing blame game. Whether or not it's food, excercise, reading, movie watching (internet forum posting), people will engage in all sorts of escapist activities and will also engage in all sorts of rationalizations. It's hardly the fault of recreational legalization (does legal booze create alcoholics?)

Anyway, for me Lexapro is preferable to pot because I don't have any bad side effects, it is temporary, and it is legal.

I'm glad it works for you - it does have side effects and can be much more difficult to withdraw from than pot. However, it is legal.

What it looks to me like your therapist is doing is setting up a divorce where you get a slam dunk on custody, and nudging you in that direction. While what you told your therapist may not qualify as a mandatory reporter violation, it certainly paints him into the characteristics of being a neglectful parent.

Op here again - a lot to unpack here. Won't do a point by point, but there's a theme about my need to control and blame. I appreciate you keeping me honest there - I am really trying to not come from that place and its hard to convey a full meaning in an online post. It isn't about blame or changing/improving an individual person - it's about changing/improving our current dynamic given where we are today. Which, frankly, is different than we were 10 years ago when we first met or 6 years ago when we got married and then had our first child within the first two years after. I am a mother now - a same person to the core, but have different roles, responsibilities, perspectives. I'm also older...and would like to say wiser, but maybe not. And you know what, he's gone through changes too. He's evolved and changed in many ways since we first met and married. I don't define myself by use of substances (by the way, I have been a recreational lot user myself in the past and come from a part of the country where it is acceptable and now legal - and I'm fully behind recreational use and legalization). And no one has given any ultimatums - not me, not my therapist on my behalf. When he said i told you don't make me choose, that wasn't because I had said you have to choose. It was the response to me saying I'm uncomfortable with the current state and my therapist confirming that im feeling discomfort in that session. So we need to talk about what will work - and what won't. The immediate response though that it wasn't on the table for discussion at therapy really threw me for a loop but I think was a natural reaction given the way the issue was raised. So I'll keep trying to talk to him - in therapy or alone or in some other facilitated way. But can't separate or leave just yet. You are right - I have major issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He just said if you force his hand, you will LOSE in a contest with pot. It really doesn't matter what you insert in the place of pot, that's unacceptable. How can you go to therapy when he has told you one of your biggest issues has to be taken off the table?! I'm sorry, but this is over. Start planning your exit.

I got divorced 15 years ago over this very issue.

Any regrets? How long did it take you to come to the conclusion that was it? Did you try counseling or other means to work it out? And was it a dealbreaker for you - meaning, no pot use, ever or I will walk? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He just said if you force his hand, you will LOSE in a contest with pot. It really doesn't matter what you insert in the place of pot, that's unacceptable. How can you go to therapy when he has told you one of your biggest issues has to be taken off the table?! I'm sorry, but this is over. Start planning your exit.

I got divorced 15 years ago over this very issue.

Any regrets? How long did it take you to come to the conclusion that was it? Did you try counseling or other means to work it out? And was it a dealbreaker for you - meaning, no pot use, ever or I will walk? Thanks.

We did go to therapy - we had no kids together. Our therapist told us there were three people in the marriage. He was a major pot-head - as in, stoned each and every day and he absolutely refused to stop. It took me a year to bail. I'm not trying to excuse myself for marrying him but I was a very sheltered young woman when we married and had never been exposed to any sort of drug use and I believed him when he said he would stop after we were married (I was young and dumb).

Two years after our divorce I married a wonderful man - the love of my life - and we've been happily married for 12 years. My ex-husband died of a drug overdose about 5 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry - point was lost in my rambling post. He thinks I breached his trust by telling my therapist about his pot smoking.

whats the point of paying a therapist if you are not going to be 100% honest. You cannot expect a 100% result if you will not be totally upfront.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here - yes, PP think that's exactly the right question. Whether it is a dealbreaker. I don't think it is under a different set of circumstances - I truly do not take issue with recreational use. But I think we differ in what we consider recreational. I think the fact that he says don't make me choose suggests that this goes beyond recreational use to some kind of addiction. And all the things that come after the "but" in your post thst concern me. Custody of our kids, etc., yeah that would get messy and complicated. But any messier than continuing in a marriage with someone that says he would never ever quit? When, by the way, that's not even necessarily what I asked him to do? And even if I did - really? I just can't believe he said it like that. I don't remember him saying it like that before, but if he did, it was pre-marriage, pre-kids, pre- oh so much! Is that really a dealbreaker for HIM? And that he was won't even discuss it with me in therapy???

OP, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are married to an addict. You keep hoping he will change his frequency of use and wanting him to be reasonable about it but that's not going to happen. He's basically told you as much. My best advice is to stop running the refrain in your head that "if only he would limit his smoking to recreational use..." and to move forward with the grieving process by learning to accept that he's not going to change. Anything else is just about distracting yourself from what is really happening. Check out Nar-Anon. I haven't gone but I do go to Al-Anon and find it helpful.

Again, so sorry, OP. It sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here again - a lot to unpack here. Won't do a point by point, but there's a theme about my need to control and blame. I appreciate you keeping me honest there - I am really trying to not come from that place and its hard to convey a full meaning in an online post.

Hi OP, I'm the person going back and forth with you; it is a long list, and I snipped it in the quotes. In re-reading my previous stuff, I'm being pretty aggressive towards you and I'm not altogether happy with that tone either - as you said, hard to convey a lot of things online.

It isn't about blame or changing/improving an individual person - it's about changing/improving our current dynamic given where we are today.

FWIW, that sounds really solid to me.

Which, frankly, is different than we were 10 years ago when we first met or 6 years ago when we got married and then had our first child within the first two years after. I am a mother now - a same person to the core, but have different roles, responsibilities, perspectives. I'm also older...and would like to say wiser, but maybe not. And you know what, he's gone through changes too. He's evolved and changed in many ways since we first met and married.

People and circumstances change - I think that's life and it's totally valid for you to expect/want other things to change. Particularly with children coming into your life.

And no one has given any ultimatums - not me, not my therapist on my behalf. When he said i told you don't make me choose, that wasn't because I had said you have to choose.

My bad...I assumed and kind of filled in those blanks.

It was the response to me saying I'm uncomfortable with the current state and my therapist confirming that im feeling discomfort in that session. So we need to talk about what will work - and what won't. The immediate response though that it wasn't on the table for discussion at therapy really threw me for a loop but I think was a natural reaction given the way the issue was raised. So I'll keep trying to talk to him - in therapy or alone or in some other facilitated way. But can't separate or leave just yet. You are right - I have major issues.

I think he's feeling super-threatened, and that kind of defensiveness is probably an automatic response no matter how you approach it. Like the other posters, I also think, based on the two people I mentioned, that the odds are really poor, largely because unless your husband is open to seeing he's got problems and working on them, then things aren't going to change. Weed is pretty exceptional for tamping down the world, including all those signals that things aren't good.

Based on a 3rd person I know closely, who ultimately did NA successfully (I'm not personally a fan of 12-stepper-ism, but whatever works!), sometimes the cliche about hitting bottom is real. Maybe the real threat of a separation will shake him up, but definitely continue down the path of telling him it's a real issue for you. If that is what your therapist was doing, then I retract the pretty critical comments I was making about them.

You, on the other hand, seem to recognize you need to make changes and are actively working on that, which makes you sound a lot healthier to me than where he is.

Good luck to you...for real. Sorry I was being so harsh before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He just said if you force his hand, you will LOSE in a contest with pot. It really doesn't matter what you insert in the place of pot, that's unacceptable. How can you go to therapy when he has told you one of your biggest issues has to be taken off the table?! I'm sorry, but this is over. Start planning your exit.

I got divorced 15 years ago over this very issue.

Any regrets? How long did it take you to come to the conclusion that was it? Did you try counseling or other means to work it out? And was it a dealbreaker for you - meaning, no pot use, ever or I will walk? Thanks.

We did go to therapy - we had no kids together. Our therapist told us there were three people in the marriage. He was a major pot-head - as in, stoned each and every day and he absolutely refused to stop. It took me a year to bail. I'm not trying to excuse myself for marrying him but I was a very sheltered young woman when we married and had never been exposed to any sort of drug use and I believed him when he said he would stop after we were married (I was young and dumb).

Two years after our divorce I married a wonderful man - the love of my life - and we've been happily married for 12 years. My ex-husband died of a drug overdose about 5 years ago.

OP here - I'm glad you got to a good place. and very sad (and sobering) to hear about your ex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here - yes, PP think that's exactly the right question. Whether it is a dealbreaker. I don't think it is under a different set of circumstances - I truly do not take issue with recreational use. But I think we differ in what we consider recreational. I think the fact that he says don't make me choose suggests that this goes beyond recreational use to some kind of addiction. And all the things that come after the "but" in your post thst concern me. Custody of our kids, etc., yeah that would get messy and complicated. But any messier than continuing in a marriage with someone that says he would never ever quit? When, by the way, that's not even necessarily what I asked him to do? And even if I did - really? I just can't believe he said it like that. I don't remember him saying it like that before, but if he did, it was pre-marriage, pre-kids, pre- oh so much! Is that really a dealbreaker for HIM? And that he was won't even discuss it with me in therapy???

OP, I'm sorry to tell you this but you are married to an addict. You keep hoping he will change his frequency of use and wanting him to be reasonable about it but that's not going to happen. He's basically told you as much. My best advice is to stop running the refrain in your head that "if only he would limit his smoking to recreational use..." and to move forward with the grieving process by learning to accept that he's not going to change. Anything else is just about distracting yourself from what is really happening. Check out Nar-Anon. I haven't gone but I do go to Al-Anon and find it helpful.

Again, so sorry, OP. It sucks.

OP here - You may indeed be right. But I feel like at this stage, I owe it to my family, him and myself to try everything possible to get it to work. It may be that, like any addict, recreational use as I think of it (the equivalent of a glass at wine at night) is not a possibility for him. And if that is the case, then yes, it will be time to move forward. But I haven't yet gone through those steps because I wasn't seeing it as an addiction. Now I think I do and I'm going to move ahead as such. You could be right that I am in the "bargaining" stage and that ultimately that won't work. I do need professional help with this - which is why I'm seeking it. I will check out Nar-Anon - that could be helpful (I've been through Al-Anon in regard to my father's alcoholism and did not find that to be). Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here again - a lot to unpack here. Won't do a point by point, but there's a theme about my need to control and blame. I appreciate you keeping me honest there - I am really trying to not come from that place and its hard to convey a full meaning in an online post.

Hi OP, I'm the person going back and forth with you; it is a long list, and I snipped it in the quotes. In re-reading my previous stuff, I'm being pretty aggressive towards you and I'm not altogether happy with that tone either - as you said, hard to convey a lot of things online.

It isn't about blame or changing/improving an individual person - it's about changing/improving our current dynamic given where we are today.

FWIW, that sounds really solid to me.

Which, frankly, is different than we were 10 years ago when we first met or 6 years ago when we got married and then had our first child within the first two years after. I am a mother now - a same person to the core, but have different roles, responsibilities, perspectives. I'm also older...and would like to say wiser, but maybe not. And you know what, he's gone through changes too. He's evolved and changed in many ways since we first met and married.

People and circumstances change - I think that's life and it's totally valid for you to expect/want other things to change. Particularly with children coming into your life.

And no one has given any ultimatums - not me, not my therapist on my behalf. When he said i told you don't make me choose, that wasn't because I had said you have to choose.

My bad...I assumed and kind of filled in those blanks.

It was the response to me saying I'm uncomfortable with the current state and my therapist confirming that im feeling discomfort in that session. So we need to talk about what will work - and what won't. The immediate response though that it wasn't on the table for discussion at therapy really threw me for a loop but I think was a natural reaction given the way the issue was raised. So I'll keep trying to talk to him - in therapy or alone or in some other facilitated way. But can't separate or leave just yet. You are right - I have major issues.

I think he's feeling super-threatened, and that kind of defensiveness is probably an automatic response no matter how you approach it. Like the other posters, I also think, based on the two people I mentioned, that the odds are really poor, largely because unless your husband is open to seeing he's got problems and working on them, then things aren't going to change. Weed is pretty exceptional for tamping down the world, including all those signals that things aren't good.

Based on a 3rd person I know closely, who ultimately did NA successfully (I'm not personally a fan of 12-stepper-ism, but whatever works!), sometimes the cliche about hitting bottom is real. Maybe the real threat of a separation will shake him up, but definitely continue down the path of telling him it's a real issue for you. If that is what your therapist was doing, then I retract the pretty critical comments I was making about them.

You, on the other hand, seem to recognize you need to make changes and are actively working on that, which makes you sound a lot healthier to me than where he is.

Good luck to you...for real. Sorry I was being so harsh before.

Thanks for responding - I wasn't judging your post as too harsh - I came here looking for people to challenge my views as much as I was here looking for affirmation and support. This is a process that I am in up to my eyeballs (if not higher), and so it is difficult to see clearly. I really appreciate your honesty and thoughts. There are many things that I need to work on and make changes to on my end too - and I am working those things actively and deliberately. In some ways maybe in ways not everyone agrees with (e.g., Lexapro), but in others where I think everyone could agree are healthy and good steps (e.g., individual psychotherapy/CBT, meditation, deep-breathing, etc.) I hit my rock-bottom on the Fairfax Psych Ward. I'm not sure what his rock bottom would be - it wasn't that. I too fear that you and others are right, but I still have hope. Because my husband is generally a very open-minded guy. We'll see if that openness can extend to this issue - notwithstanding the outburst the other day. here's hoping.