When can a child be expelled for being too much of a disruption

[Anonymous]

Apologies - Compassion and empathy ARE not bound ... nor should THEY be..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
IF I see it - I would do it. Compassion and empathy is not bound by school geography, nor should it be. It also appears that we are talking about ES and early MS, areas where children are more receptive to being taught and where support and guidance are better interventions than the punishment of expulsion.

Okay - http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/201398.page

Neither of my kids are high achievers, but are doing fine in their schools. JW is great, but classes are overcrowded. Although there are many great things about RMHS, my child has started to mention that there are a lot of rougher and immature kids. Some of his courses are not AP/IB and he said those types of classes often seem to be out of control. We're starting to wonder if RMHS (as a magnet school) makes it difficult for an average student to get a decent education. Also, will the school continue to attract more and more disruptive students. My middle-schooler is also an average achiever and I wonder if we won't have the same issues at RMHS - where if your child isn't taking all AP courses, classes are chaotic and they might be influenced more by what they call the rougher kids.

Please tell this mom how she should keep her kids in their current cluster and just worry about her kids learning compassion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid was in private school and we left because of such kids. I am not surprised that W schools will get their quotas of such kids as well. They are the same demographics.

You mean you left a private school due to the behavioral issues of another student? Can't private schools ask such a disruptive child to leave?

Many of the disruptive kids in public school end up in private.

In our case we ended up homeschooling with various add-on services. Financially insane but you do what you have to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a special needs child, so I understand that this kind of behavior can be the result of mental illness, emotional disturbance or neurological issues, etc. Paddling or punitive measures don't generally help in that kind of situation and in fact often make it worse. Unfortunately, I have seen how teachers have very little training in behavior and discipline to manage students, and usually end up doing punitive things which only inflame the situation. Typically these kids need to have smaller class sizes, with teachers who can spot early behavior and redirect, with positive modeling and encouragement and explicit lessons in managing and expressing emotion and behavior.

That said, there are aspects of the behavior problem that go beyond being disruptive and veer into sexual harassment -- "Blocks my daughter from getting into her locker on occasion. Pats girls on the rear end. Makes inappropropriate remarks to other kids.."you have big boobs" etc."

Touching a person on their private area (which includes boobs or buttocks) is a form of sexual assault. I don't remember what level it is in Maryland, but it's definitely a prosecutable offense. I'm not saying a young child with a behavioral problem should be prosecuted, but to make the point that the behavior is serious to the victim even if it is not done intentionally by the perpetrator or even if the perpetrator doesn't have the control necessary to restrain himself. Making inappropriate remarks such as commenting on the size of girl's boobs is sexual harassment. The school has a legal obligation to put an end to it. File the bullying form. You must report this in writing. Unfortunately, MCPS doesn't have a form tailored to sexual harassment or assault, so you will have to amend and add to the bullying form to make the situation clear. When you file the bullying form, in addition, send a copy to the MCPS Title IX coordinator. Call here and find out the name and address -- "Direct inquiries or complaints regarding Title IX issues such as gender equity and sexual harassment to the Title IX coordinator in the Office of School Performance at 301-517-5916."

Again, your complaint MUST be in writing. Once the bullying form is filed, MCPS must conduct an investigation.https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/pdf/230-35.pdf

I agree. I also think that this approach is compatible with compassion and empathy. Take the correct steps - especially when harassment and bullying are concerned. If only so that the proper people can start to manage the child appropriately and get the right assistance, either through counseling, identifying health issues, etc. Very rarely is that going to result in expulsion, and may result in people learning how to respond to someone with issues. The child is still a child and may not even realize that commenting on boob size is inappropriate - until told and taught. Also important is context. He may think he was playing when blocking the way to the locker and not picking up on social cues to understand that she didn't think it was play. He needs to be taught - not shamed, not punished.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

+1

Or not.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/most-kids-believe-that-achievement-trumps-empathy/373378/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

+1

Or not.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/most-kids-believe-that-achievement-trumps-empathy/373378/

How can one expect a 10 year old to have compassion and show empathy if he/she is being bitten or touched inappropriately? "Excuse me Bobby, please don't touch my breasts today. Are you having an "off" day" ??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just feel sorry for the teachers. They are not paid enough to deal with this sort of B.S.

You get good at it when you deal with it year after year, unfortunately. Although I do think those of us in highly impacted schools should be paid more than those in highly affluent schools. This kind of behavior is par for the course in our schools, yet it's on us to be counselors/psychologists and also close the achievement gap while dealing with various behavioral problems.

The majority of our students are lovely, but you can count on at least one significant behavior problem per class. And MCPS's stance is that behavioral problems should be dealt with in the classroom as not to ostracize the student by sending them to the office. Oh, and you can only use positive reinforcement strategies. Oh yay, let's look at how our suspension rate has decreased! That's because the problems are expected to be handled in the classroom.

I'm not trained to be a behavioral interventionist--that's why I'll be wrapping up my career serving the population who needs me and moving to a more affluent school next year. It's a shame because I'm effective at what I do and I love helping these kids, but MCPS is making it hard for me to do my job here.

-teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid was in private school and we left because of such kids. I am not surprised that W schools will get their quotas of such kids as well. They are the same demographics.

You mean you left a private school due to the behavioral issues of another student? Can't private schools ask such a disruptive child to leave?

Many of the disruptive kids in public school end up in private.

In our case we ended up homeschooling with various add-on services. Financially insane but you do what you have to do.

I am the PP who pulled out my child from private. The private knew that there were behavioral issues. It was not a surprise. And even though an additional teacher was with the kid throughout the day, his frequent behavior like - crying, tantrums, banging head on the floor - was traumatic for my child and disruptive to the class.

That child really did not belong in that classroom, but, I can understand that the parents wanted him socialized with other children. I get that totally. No judgement here because it is a tough situation.

We left and several other families left for MCPS as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just feel sorry for the teachers. They are not paid enough to deal with this sort of B.S.

You get good at it when you deal with it year after year, unfortunately. Although I do think those of us in highly impacted schools should be paid more than those in highly affluent schools. This kind of behavior is par for the course in our schools, yet it's on us to be counselors/psychologists and also close the achievement gap while dealing with various behavioral problems.

The majority of our students are lovely, but you can count on at least one significant behavior problem per class. And MCPS's stance is that behavioral problems should be dealt with in the classroom as not to ostracize the student by sending them to the office. Oh, and you can only use positive reinforcement strategies. Oh yay, let's look at how our suspension rate has decreased! That's because the problems are expected to be handled in the classroom.

I'm not trained to be a behavioral interventionist--that's why I'll be wrapping up my career serving the population who needs me and moving to a more affluent school next year. It's a shame because I'm effective at what I do and I love helping these kids, but MCPS is making it hard for me to do my job here.

-teacher

positive reinforcement is more effective than negative. I'm sorry you aren't trained to be a behavioral interventionist. Every teacher should understand human behavior and how to shape/motivate/teach it appropriately. Your teacher education program should have provided this, and MCPS should have trained you yearly to increase your education in this area and improve your effectiveness.

[Anonymous]

The majority of our students are lovely, but you can count on at least one significant behavior problem per class. And MCPS's stance is that behavioral problems should be dealt with in the classroom as not to ostracize the student by sending them to the office. Oh, and you can only use positive reinforcement strategies.

Kids have no fear anymore. Not afraid of the teacher, the principal, the parents.. When I was a kid in the stone age, we were afraid of being punished by authority figures. Nobody mouthed off to the principal, otherwise there were consequences. These positive reinforcement strategies allow the kids to run all over the teachers. They are useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

+1

Or not.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/06/most-kids-believe-that-achievement-trumps-empathy/373378/

How can one expect a 10 year old to have compassion and show empathy if he/she is being bitten or touched inappropriately? "Excuse me Bobby, please don't touch my breasts today. Are you having an "off" day" ??

Actually - Yes. Accept without the sarcasm. "Bobby - Don't touch me there. That's inappropriate, and I am going to tell the teacher." Then, as stated before - she should talk to the teacher about it, so the teacher can make the right call regarding what needs to happen next. When she tells you as a parent what happened -you then don't fly off the handle and say things like that child is a pervert or should be expelled! You explain that sometimes children have issues, don't know boundaries and need to be taught the right way to interact with others. What he did was highly inappropriate, and she was right to tell the teacher. Doesn't mean she can't have compassion and empathy for him. If she is sarcastic and then makes fun of him for not understanding and tells everyone and tries to shame him- that's not compassionate nor is it empathetic, and may be counterproductive in the long run.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous]My kid was in private school and we left because of such kids. I am not surprised that W schools will get their quotas of such kids as well. They are the same demographics.




We did too. But as the mom of SN kids, I also understand. Since this is on the MD public schools post, I am just guessing the boy may have a 504 or IEP? Could be tourette's. Some types of autism have tourette's-like features. No boundaries. Sudden outbursts. There is a boy in my son's church school class who has classic tourette's and says foul things. It's a problem but if you are not accepted in church youth group, where will you be accepted?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

I don't think that English, math, compassion, and empathy are mutually exclusive.

The learning process and continuous disruption are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Anonymous wrote:The same thing happened at our W school. A group of parents requested a meeting with the principal and had it out and let the principal know they would not tolerate this behavior.

Then I asked if I could speak... and I did.

I told these parents that I could not believe that they were acting like this. I could not believe that they and their children had been given every single solitary advantage in life and that they could not tolerate one disruptive child. I was embarrassed to call them friends. They were NOT role models and I will ensure my children do not ever consider them in that way ever again. (They were teachers helpers and coaches and every other imaginable thing they could be to micromanage every single second of their children's lives.)

I asked the principal if the family would allow a psychologist (on my dime) to come to the school and coach our children on how to be more caring and compassionate. If they could learn when they could tell this child.. "that is not okay" vs "I am sorry you are having a bad day how can I help". (Eventually, the school counselor got one-on-one instruction from this child's physiologist and she worked with OUR children, not that child.)

Life is not going to be perfect for our children and they need to learn that we are not going to exterminate every single challenge they face. I am sure this family spends every single day worried that their child will be expelled and we are just hastening this end and I would not be a part of it.

Your post makes me feel just as sick I felt that day when a bunch of horrible women and men went to our principal with pitch forks trying to eliminate this child's chance constitutional right to an education at his home school.

The child stayed, is in 7th grade now and doing well.

Shame on you!

(Also, go ahead and tear apart my spelling and grammar.)

The next time there is a thread on Non-W high schools and the "hooligans" in the non-honors classes, I hope you both post this same thing and tell the parents they should all get together and demand to have the school psychologist come talk to their children and teach their children how to have compassion for the troublemaker. Go on - I'll be waiting for that post.

Done.