When can a child be expelled for being too much of a disruption

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In another thread about HSs, people were complaining about disruptive kids, and how those schools that have them are terrible. Here, the response is that you should have compassion. But, these ES kids that have these issues grow up to be HS kids that can cause disruptions as well. People don't seem to have much compassion for those HS kids. At what point does the "compassion" convert to "hooligans"? Not saying we shouldn't have compassion for kids, but I just find the dichotomy puzzling.

PP, here's how it works, at least on DCUM: Disruptive children who live in Bethesda and Potomac deserve compassion. Disruptive children who live elsewhere are hooligans.

Disclaimer: I don't personally endorse this point of view.

I am from Bethesda and I would agree with this. Good point.

[Anonymous]

No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In another thread about HSs, people were complaining about disruptive kids, and how those schools that have them are terrible. Here, the response is that you should have compassion. But, these ES kids that have these issues grow up to be HS kids that can cause disruptions as well. People don't seem to have much compassion for those HS kids. At what point does the "compassion" convert to "hooligans"? Not saying we shouldn't have compassion for kids, but I just find the dichotomy puzzling.

PP, here's how it works, at least on DCUM: Disruptive children who live in Bethesda and Potomac deserve compassion. Disruptive children who live elsewhere are hooligans.

Disclaimer: I don't personally endorse this point of view.

I was just going to write this exact thing. W school disruptive child - have some compassion for that poor child! Teach your kid how to handle differences

Non-W disruptive child - that is why I'm would never send my child to that school and so glad we go private/W school.

[Anonymous]

The same thing happened at our W school. A group of parents requested a meeting with the principal and had it out and let the principal know they would not tolerate this behavior.

Then I asked if I could speak... and I did.

I told these parents that I could not believe that they were acting like this. I could not believe that they and their children had been given every single solitary advantage in life and that they could not tolerate one disruptive child. I was embarrassed to call them friends. They were NOT role models and I will ensure my children do not ever consider them in that way ever again. (They were teachers helpers and coaches and every other imaginable thing they could be to micromanage every single second of their children's lives.)

I asked the principal if the family would allow a psychologist (on my dime) to come to the school and coach our children on how to be more caring and compassionate. If they could learn when they could tell this child.. "that is not okay" vs "I am sorry you are having a bad day how can I help". (Eventually, the school counselor got one-on-one instruction from this child's physiologist and she worked with OUR children, not that child.)

Life is not going to be perfect for our children and they need to learn that we are not going to exterminate every single challenge they face. I am sure this family spends every single day worried that their child will be expelled and we are just hastening this end and I would not be a part of it.

Your post makes me feel just as sick I felt that day when a bunch of horrible women and men went to our principal with pitch forks trying to eliminate this child's chance constitutional right to an education at his home school.

The child stayed, is in 7th grade now and doing well.

Shame on you!

(Also, go ahead and tear apart my spelling and grammar.)

[Anonymous]

If it was my child who was having her rear end patted or her breasts remarked upon, my compassion would be running at an all time low. I'm not a mean person, but something needs to be done about this little boy, not just for the other children's sake but for his too.
PP is right that continued inappropriate behavior has worse consequences the older a child gets; no one wins.
OP, I know the teacher is aware, but it can't hurt to voice your concerns too. Who knows how much it will help, but it can't hurt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Anonymous wrote:The same thing happened at our W school. A group of parents requested a meeting with the principal and had it out and let the principal know they would not tolerate this behavior.

Then I asked if I could speak... and I did.

I told these parents that I could not believe that they were acting like this. I could not believe that they and their children had been given every single solitary advantage in life and that they could not tolerate one disruptive child. I was embarrassed to call them friends. They were NOT role models and I will ensure my children do not ever consider them in that way ever again. (They were teachers helpers and coaches and every other imaginable thing they could be to micromanage every single second of their children's lives.)

I asked the principal if the family would allow a psychologist (on my dime) to come to the school and coach our children on how to be more caring and compassionate. If they could learn when they could tell this child.. "that is not okay" vs "I am sorry you are having a bad day how can I help". (Eventually, the school counselor got one-on-one instruction from this child's physiologist and she worked with OUR children, not that child.)

Life is not going to be perfect for our children and they need to learn that we are not going to exterminate every single challenge they face. I am sure this family spends every single day worried that their child will be expelled and we are just hastening this end and I would not be a part of it.

Your post makes me feel just as sick I felt that day when a bunch of horrible women and men went to our principal with pitch forks trying to eliminate this child's chance constitutional right to an education at his home school.

The child stayed, is in 7th grade now and doing well.

Shame on you!

(Also, go ahead and tear apart my spelling and grammar.)

The next time there is a thread on Non-W high schools and the "hooligans" in the non-honors classes, I hope you both post this same thing and tell the parents they should all get together and demand to have the school psychologist come talk to their children and teach their children how to have compassion for the troublemaker. Go on - I'll be waiting for that post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If it was my child who was having her rear end patted or her breasts remarked upon, my compassion would be running at an all time low. I'm not a mean person, but something needs to be done about this little boy, not just for the other children's sake but for his too.
PP is right that continued inappropriate behavior has worse consequences the older a child gets; no one wins.
OP, I know the teacher is aware, but it can't hurt to voice your concerns too. Who knows how much it will help, but it can't hurt.

But I think that there is a valid distinction between "Patting rear ends and remarking on breasts is unacceptable behavior, and the school must act to stop it" and "This child is too disruptive and should be expelled (or paddled)."

[Anonymous]

I have a special needs child, so I understand that this kind of behavior can be the result of mental illness, emotional disturbance or neurological issues, etc. Paddling or punitive measures don't generally help in that kind of situation and in fact often make it worse. Unfortunately, I have seen how teachers have very little training in behavior and discipline to manage students, and usually end up doing punitive things which only inflame the situation. Typically these kids need to have smaller class sizes, with teachers who can spot early behavior and redirect, with positive modeling and encouragement and explicit lessons in managing and expressing emotion and behavior.

That said, there are aspects of the behavior problem that go beyond being disruptive and veer into sexual harassment -- "Blocks my daughter from getting into her locker on occasion. Pats girls on the rear end. Makes inappropropriate remarks to other kids.."you have big boobs" etc."

Touching a person on their private area (which includes boobs or buttocks) is a form of sexual assault. I don't remember what level it is in Maryland, but it's definitely a prosecutable offense. I'm not saying a young child with a behavioral problem should be prosecuted, but to make the point that the behavior is serious to the victim even if it is not done intentionally by the perpetrator or even if the perpetrator doesn't have the control necessary to restrain himself. Making inappropriate remarks such as commenting on the size of girl's boobs is sexual harassment. The school has a legal obligation to put an end to it. File the bullying form. You must report this in writing. Unfortunately, MCPS doesn't have a form tailored to sexual harassment or assault, so you will have to amend and add to the bullying form to make the situation clear. When you file the bullying form, in addition, send a copy to the MCPS Title IX coordinator. Call here and find out the name and address -- "Direct inquiries or complaints regarding Title IX issues such as gender equity and sexual harassment to the Title IX coordinator in the Office of School Performance at 301-517-5916."

Again, your complaint MUST be in writing. Once the bullying form is filed, MCPS must conduct an investigation.https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/forms/pdf/230-35.pdf

[Anonymous]

I just feel sorry for the teachers. They are not paid enough to deal with this sort of B.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In another thread about HSs, people were complaining about disruptive kids, and how those schools that have them are terrible. Here, the response is that you should have compassion. But, these ES kids that have these issues grow up to be HS kids that can cause disruptions as well. People don't seem to have much compassion for those HS kids. At what point does the "compassion" convert to "hooligans"? Not saying we shouldn't have compassion for kids, but I just find the dichotomy puzzling.

PP, here's how it works, at least on DCUM: Disruptive children who live in Bethesda and Potomac deserve compassion. Disruptive children who live elsewhere are hooligans.

Disclaimer: I don't personally endorse this point of view.

I was just going to write this exact thing. W school disruptive child - have some compassion for that poor child! Teach your kid how to handle differences

Non-W disruptive child - that is why I'm would never send my child to that school and so glad we go private/W school.

I'm the first PP. This is exactly what I read on here. If a child is disruptive in a lower SES school, especially one with lots of minorities, it's because the parents don't care, don't discipline, etc.. and "this is why my kids need to go to a W school" (that was a title of a post I've read on here a few weeks/months ago). But if a kid is like this in a high SES school, then it's because they have a SN or something. But, I think we've seen that just because you make lots of $ and/or are highly educated, it doesn't mean that you are automatically a good parent, vis a vis, the parents that left their kids in a car to go to a wine bar. I'm sure there are plenty of upper income parents that don't discipline their kids, too. They probably do care more about the kids' grades because they would be ashamed if their kids didn't do well in life like they did.

Uneducated parents are not as aware of IEPs and SNs of kids compared to more educated people, and even if they were, they don't have the means to fight the school districts to provide for the IEPs. They can't take time off from work to meet with the school; they don't have the $ to hire a fancy lawyer or file the lawsuit themselves. And yet, people on here are so quick to label "those" kids as hooligans. Do these people ever wonder if those kids have SNs that are not addressed?

We see this in the court systems with juveniles, too. If you come from a low SES (and minority), chances are you will get a harsher penalty than if you are white and from a high SES (vis a vis the Affluenza kid).

I don't want my kids to be around disruptive kids, either. My 6 yr old DD was punched in the stomach by another 6 yr old in a somewhat affluent school. I don't know whether this kid has a SN or not. I'm not passing judgement on anyone here. I just thought the difference in responses were interesting.

[Anonymous]

Doesn't the district have special ed classes or special schools for kids with this sort of problem. Spec ed teachers with mental health training should be able to handle this kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Anonymous wrote:The same thing happened at our W school. A group of parents requested a meeting with the principal and had it out and let the principal know they would not tolerate this behavior.

Then I asked if I could speak... and I did.

I told these parents that I could not believe that they were acting like this. I could not believe that they and their children had been given every single solitary advantage in life and that they could not tolerate one disruptive child. I was embarrassed to call them friends. They were NOT role models and I will ensure my children do not ever consider them in that way ever again. (They were teachers helpers and coaches and every other imaginable thing they could be to micromanage every single second of their children's lives.)

I asked the principal if the family would allow a psychologist (on my dime) to come to the school and coach our children on how to be more caring and compassionate. If they could learn when they could tell this child.. "that is not okay" vs "I am sorry you are having a bad day how can I help". (Eventually, the school counselor got one-on-one instruction from this child's physiologist and she worked with OUR children, not that child.)

Life is not going to be perfect for our children and they need to learn that we are not going to exterminate every single challenge they face. I am sure this family spends every single day worried that their child will be expelled and we are just hastening this end and I would not be a part of it.

Your post makes me feel just as sick I felt that day when a bunch of horrible women and men went to our principal with pitch forks trying to eliminate this child's chance constitutional right to an education at his home school.

The child stayed, is in 7th grade now and doing well.

Shame on you!

(Also, go ahead and tear apart my spelling and grammar.)

The next time there is a thread on Non-W high schools and the "hooligans" in the non-honors classes, I hope you both post this same thing and tell the parents they should all get together and demand to have the school psychologist come talk to their children and teach their children how to have compassion for the troublemaker. Go on - I'll be waiting for that post.

If I saw that thread I would. I moved to a non-W school district and I see much more caring and compassionate kids. If I had to do the same thing there I would but I don't see the same "I have a lawyer" attitude in our current school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Maybe the kids should be learning English and math. Maybe that is what's wrong with the country nowadays.

I don't think that English, math, compassion, and empathy are mutually exclusive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No the rest of the kids learn compassion and empathy - unlike their parents. Perhaps that's what's wrong with the country nowadays - not enough compassion and empathy. Too much what's in it for me and mine. Like not getting your children vaccinated. Not wanting to pay for good public schools or public school lunches. Just not caring about anyone other than your circle of friends and family.

Anonymous wrote:The same thing happened at our W school. A group of parents requested a meeting with the principal and had it out and let the principal know they would not tolerate this behavior.

Then I asked if I could speak... and I did.

I told these parents that I could not believe that they were acting like this. I could not believe that they and their children had been given every single solitary advantage in life and that they could not tolerate one disruptive child. I was embarrassed to call them friends. They were NOT role models and I will ensure my children do not ever consider them in that way ever again. (They were teachers helpers and coaches and every other imaginable thing they could be to micromanage every single second of their children's lives.)

I asked the principal if the family would allow a psychologist (on my dime) to come to the school and coach our children on how to be more caring and compassionate. If they could learn when they could tell this child.. "that is not okay" vs "I am sorry you are having a bad day how can I help". (Eventually, the school counselor got one-on-one instruction from this child's physiologist and she worked with OUR children, not that child.)

Life is not going to be perfect for our children and they need to learn that we are not going to exterminate every single challenge they face. I am sure this family spends every single day worried that their child will be expelled and we are just hastening this end and I would not be a part of it.

Your post makes me feel just as sick I felt that day when a bunch of horrible women and men went to our principal with pitch forks trying to eliminate this child's chance constitutional right to an education at his home school.

The child stayed, is in 7th grade now and doing well.

Shame on you!

(Also, go ahead and tear apart my spelling and grammar.)

The next time there is a thread on Non-W high schools and the "hooligans" in the non-honors classes, I hope you both post this same thing and tell the parents they should all get together and demand to have the school psychologist come talk to their children and teach their children how to have compassion for the troublemaker. Go on - I'll be waiting for that post.

IF I see it - I would do it. Compassion and empathy is not bound by school geography, nor should it be. It also appears that we are talking about ES and early MS, areas where children are more receptive to being taught and where support and guidance are better interventions than the punishment of expulsion.