People who "go for the jugular"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you handle people who become incredibly vicious in interactions without warning? I have no idea how to handle it and feel like I need a strategy moving forward.

I'm not a vicious person and have a pretty strong filter -- I sometimes think very uncharitable things about other people but I never say the worst things that come to mind, and I definitely don't name call or get aggressive, even when I really dislike someone. So I don't know what to do with people who just unleash. I don't want to match them tit-for-tat because that will just escalate the conflict, right? But on the other hand, if I say nothing after they've been extremely uncivil, it feels like I'm not standing up for myself.

Has anyone figured out how to deal with people who have this kind of killer instinct in disagreements? I am dealing with one right now and I don't want to get steamrolled by him but I also don't want to say or do anything I'll regret (weird that he doesn't seem to have this same desire, but it's clear he really doesn't).

Welcome to D.C.-area culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It's in a semi-professional setting (not my actual job but an organization I work with). It's in my neighborhood so I will likely have to see him/interact with him in the future, even if just in passing (which is one reason why his ruthless behavior is surprising to me -- he doesn't seem to care about completely burning a bridge with me even though we live near each other and will likely interact in the future).

His most recent outburst (via email) was very intense. FWIW, several other people messaged privately after he sent it to let me know they thought it crossed a line and they support me. Which I appreciate. But I still don't know how to respond, if at all. Is there strength in just ignoring it or does that make me look scared of him? To be fair, I'm definitely very wary of him now. The aggression in his message was not subtle.

Is this generally the way he handles conflicts in his work and personal life? If so, I would stand my ground regarding the business details and ignore the personal stuff. I had a similar situation with a male in an HOA setting and it was apparent that this was the way he comported himself in his daily relationships. He was angry with me because I had found that he was responsible for damages to a communal element and retaliated with legal threats (which were ridiculous). I didn’t back down from my report to the rest of the HOA members and remained civil with him, said hello to him, never wrote a nasty reply and apart from an email to our HOA lawyer explaining my side, only discussed the situation in person or over the phone with others, never by email or text.

Six months later, the angry guy wanted to buy a pied a terre in a different city and asked me (I was HOA president) to write a recommendation letter to their co-op board. He said something awkward, like “I’m glad we could move on and work together”. It confirmed my conviction that this guy was totally fine threatening and offending people on a regular basis and then pretending like it was no big deal. Like he probably couldn’t even keep track of all the people he had threatened recently. I wrote the letter saying he paid his HOA fees on time.

If your case is similar to mine, don’t take it personally. My angry guy wanted to rattle me and make me back down, so I did the opposite - didn’t back down, ignored the toothless threats, and didn’t escalate with a war of words.

[Anonymous]

[/]Welcome to D.C.-area culture.

If you believe this, the problem is you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grey rock, every time. Don’t respond, just look at them slightly puzzled and walk away.
These are normally people that were at risk in childhood and learned attack is the best defense. Later they regret their approach but patterns are hard to break. So do them the favor and don’t escalate, they will feel shame enough later if they have any introspection at all and if they don’t you at least feel fine.

It’s this.

Sadly, I was/am this person and made strides to improve myself and understand WHY.

For me, I was dismissed often as a child, and it was my only defense to be heard! Even if I wasn’t really being heard. It was frustrating not being heard, I just wanted someone to acknowledge me. People would ignore/grey rock me, and that would only infuriate me more. More ignoring! I can’t be loud enough to be heard! Fine. I’ll be louder!

My advice is to HEAR these people, even if you don’t agree. “I hear you, Mary. I can see you’re passionate about this.” Or some variation of this.

If you’ve made efforts to understand this, it’s odd that you would advise people to not grey rock this kind of rampaging person. You know your behavior was bad, so why would the solution be for people to engage further and “hear” the person rather than disengage? I find this kind of attacking, especially from a man, alarming.

I’m not saying it’s right, but as someone who has been there, I can tell you that grey rocking me was the exact opposite of what my fragile ego needed at that moment and only escalated me to the point of blind rage. I was already on the defensive expecting to not be “heard”; if people weren’t “hearing me” when I was speaking kindly, and they still didn’t when I got louder, maybe they will if I strike to kill.

I hope you’ve realized over the years that assuaging your fragile ego shouldn’t be others’ problem. The problem was you and other angry people who behave this way and you all should be the ones to change. But it doesn’t seem like you’ve realized it if you’re advising the person being attacked to pacify and say things like “I hear you.” I think the right response is for people to disengage/not tolerate the behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It's in a semi-professional setting (not my actual job but an organization I work with). It's in my neighborhood so I will likely have to see him/interact with him in the future, even if just in passing (which is one reason why his ruthless behavior is surprising to me -- he doesn't seem to care about completely burning a bridge with me even though we live near each other and will likely interact in the future).

His most recent outburst (via email) was very intense. FWIW, several other people messaged privately after he sent it to let me know they thought it crossed a line and they support me. Which I appreciate. But I still don't know how to respond, if at all. Is there strength in just ignoring it or does that make me look scared of him? To be fair, I'm definitely very wary of him now. The aggression in his message was not subtle.

Is this generally the way he handles conflicts in his work and personal life? If so, I would stand my ground regarding the business details and ignore the personal stuff. I had a similar situation with a male in an HOA setting and it was apparent that this was the way he comported himself in his daily relationships. He was angry with me because I had found that he was responsible for damages to a communal element and retaliated with legal threats (which were ridiculous). I didn’t back down from my report to the rest of the HOA members and remained civil with him, said hello to him, never wrote a nasty reply and apart from an email to our HOA lawyer explaining my side, only discussed the situation in person or over the phone with others, never by email or text.

Six months later, the angry guy wanted to buy a pied a terre in a different city and asked me (I was HOA president) to write a recommendation letter to their co-op board. He said something awkward, like “I’m glad we could move on and work together”. It confirmed my conviction that this guy was totally fine threatening and offending people on a regular basis and then pretending like it was no big deal. Like he probably couldn’t even keep track of all the people he had threatened recently. I wrote the letter saying he paid his HOA fees on time.

If your case is similar to mine, don’t take it personally. My angry guy wanted to rattle me and make me back down, so I did the opposite - didn’t back down, ignored the toothless threats, and didn’t escalate with a war of words.

Interesting perspective (OP here). I am not really sure if he does this a lot. I do know that a couple years ago, he unilaterally severed a relationship our org had with a vendor because, according to him, the vendor was "acting unprofessional" and not responding to emails. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed like a severe reaction, as I likely would have just maintained the relationship but not hired the vendor for that project. But that's my only knowledge of his other working relationships outside of this org, where he has definitely alienated several people by being kind of demanding and severe, but has never lashed out at anyone the way he has at me.

It's very hard for me to imagine this guy ever reaching out to me as though this had not happened, at this point, though. His language was so severe and offensive. I can't imagine speaking to anyone that way, much less someone I live near and have to work with in some capacity. I am honestly more baffled than offended at this point because this behavior is just so outside the norm for what I considered professional or neighborly.

[Anonymous]

OP, don't get into debating back and forth with this guy. If you feel like you need to correct the record, then just state something simple like this isn't your recollection or another catch all phrase to refute his set of allegations. Don't address each point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, don't get into debating back and forth with this guy. If you feel like you need to correct the record, then just state something simple like this isn't your recollection or another catch all phrase to refute his set of allegations. Don't address each point.

This. But, if you can, simply not replying may be best. Can you do some sort of memo to file or a board rather than engaging him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Grey rock, every time. Don’t respond, just look at them slightly puzzled and walk away.
These are normally people that were at risk in childhood and learned attack is the best defense. Later they regret their approach but patterns are hard to break. So do them the favor and don’t escalate, they will feel shame enough later if they have any introspection at all and if they don’t you at least feel fine.

It’s this.

Sadly, I was/am this person and made strides to improve myself and understand WHY.

For me, I was dismissed often as a child, and it was my only defense to be heard! Even if I wasn’t really being heard. It was frustrating not being heard, I just wanted someone to acknowledge me. People would ignore/grey rock me, and that would only infuriate me more. More ignoring! I can’t be loud enough to be heard! Fine. I’ll be louder!

My advice is to HEAR these people, even if you don’t agree. “I hear you, Mary. I can see you’re passionate about this.” Or some variation of this.

If you’ve made efforts to understand this, it’s odd that you would advise people to not grey rock this kind of rampaging person. You know your behavior was bad, so why would the solution be for people to engage further and “hear” the person rather than disengage? I find this kind of attacking, especially from a man, alarming.

I’m not saying it’s right, but as someone who has been there, I can tell you that grey rocking me was the exact opposite of what my fragile ego needed at that moment and only escalated me to the point of blind rage. I was already on the defensive expecting to not be “heard”; if people weren’t “hearing me” when I was speaking kindly, and they still didn’t when I got louder, maybe they will if I strike to kill.

What you describe is disordered thinking akin to mental illness. Few are equipped to deal with it and their best course of action, especially if they don't have a close relationship with you, is to grey rock. It's definitely a 'you' problem.

FWIW, I grew up with horrific abuse. I would never expect/advise others to accommodate me abusing others - which is what OP experienced. Unacceptable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you handle people who become incredibly vicious in interactions without warning? I have no idea how to handle it and feel like I need a strategy moving forward.

I'm not a vicious person and have a pretty strong filter -- I sometimes think very uncharitable things about other people but I never say the worst things that come to mind, and I definitely don't name call or get aggressive, even when I really dislike someone. So I don't know what to do with people who just unleash. I don't want to match them tit-for-tat because that will just escalate the conflict, right? But on the other hand, if I say nothing after they've been extremely uncivil, it feels like I'm not standing up for myself.

Has anyone figured out how to deal with people who have this kind of killer instinct in disagreements? I am dealing with one right now and I don't want to get steamrolled by him but I also don't want to say or do anything I'll regret (weird that he doesn't seem to have this same desire, but it's clear he really doesn't).

Someone who behaves this way likely has a cluster b personality disorder or is, at a minimum, emotionally immature. I am related to avperson like this and am currently on a no contact break from them because I can't control how they treat me and I don't want to sink to their level. I've been reading up on boundaries, scripts and methods to use in dealing with toxic people. It all starts with knowing your own values and self worth. From there, it looks simple enough: deflect, disengage, "grey rock", etc. I hope you find advice which helps you.

Gosh, OP. I could have written your post. Like the pp, I have a relative with this issue and agree it's a personality disorder or emotional immaturity. I suspect when they have an issue let's say with their job, they will take it out on whoever is around. I was quite upset and also need to take a no contact break.

What's frustrating is that when I talk to them I need to remember to end the call quickly. Always have somewhere to be or something I have to do soon afterward.

If it's a relative, you can say no, be boring like a grey rock, and always have something you need to get to after the call or appointment with the toxic person. Your time is always short.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If it's in a work setting, chances are his reputation is out there and ppl know this about him. You have to keep it professional and when necessary, correct his misstatement with facts without any emotions attached.

If it's a personal relationship, distance yourself.

Basically, don't rise to his level and don't take the bait.

Ok, the bolded is specifically what I'm struggling with. In his message, he severely mischaracterized several things I've done. For instance saying that I "yelled" at him in a conversation where I definitely didn't yell or even raise my voice (in fact I didn't even view the interaction in question as a conflict). He also called me several names and described my personality in an aggressively negative way that I don't think reflects even my worst qualities.

Do I correct the record on these points? Is it worthwhile? I do think he is coming off as unhinged to other people (there were several others on this email) but I also worry that if I don't say anything it looks like I am accepting his statements as true even though they are clearly not.

My inclination is to say nothing but I wonder if my silence is communicating something I don't want it to.

This book should help. Excellent strategies I have used with similar people. This way, you don't feel like you are being walked all over.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/133203.The_Gentle_Art_of_Verbal_Self_Defense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I deal with this too often. The part that was the hardest for me was why are people doing this to me? I went to therapy about it. I'm successful, upbeat, petite woman who is attractive. I've ran into multiple women who get incredibly nasty with me. I got punched at a wedding!

Anyways, the best advice I got from therapy was to never argue back with someone who likes to argue. Argumentative people get energy from arguing, so you just can't feed that. (The advice might be different if you are a good debater, I'm not).

Things I've said that worked:
-Nasty coworker screaming at me over Zoom- "I think we need to take a step back and end this conversation because you've gotten out of control. I don't deserve to be screamed at." And then hang up.
-Nasty relative cursing me out "You have a lot of feelings about this, but I'm not interested in hearing more about this."
-If it's over email, I just don't respond.

This is the best! I am using it next time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is the context/situation at hand? Personal relationship, work setting, strangers in public? I'd probably react differently depending on the setting.

+1

We have absolutely no context, OP??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you handle people who become incredibly vicious in interactions without warning? I have no idea how to handle it and feel like I need a strategy moving forward.

I'm not a vicious person and have a pretty strong filter -- I sometimes think very uncharitable things about other people but I never say the worst things that come to mind, and I definitely don't name call or get aggressive, even when I really dislike someone. So I don't know what to do with people who just unleash. I don't want to match them tit-for-tat because that will just escalate the conflict, right? But on the other hand, if I say nothing after they've been extremely uncivil, it feels like I'm not standing up for myself.

Has anyone figured out how to deal with people who have this kind of killer instinct in disagreements? I am dealing with one right now and I don't want to get steamrolled by him but I also don't want to say or do anything I'll regret (weird that he doesn't seem to have this same desire, but it's clear he really doesn't).

Someone who behaves this way likely has a cluster b personality disorder or is, at a minimum, emotionally immature. I am related to avperson like this and am currently on a no contact break from them because I can't control how they treat me and I don't want to sink to their level. I've been reading up on boundaries, scripts and methods to use in dealing with toxic people. It all starts with knowing your own values and self worth. From there, it looks simple enough: deflect, disengage, "grey rock", etc. I hope you find advice which helps you.

The online experts suggest asking the person to repeat what they just said and then ask some variant of “was your intention right now to be cruel?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I deal with this too often. The part that was the hardest for me was why are people doing this to me? I went to therapy about it. I'm successful, upbeat, petite woman who is attractive. I've ran into multiple women who get incredibly nasty with me. I got punched at a wedding!

Anyways, the best advice I got from therapy was to never argue back with someone who likes to argue. Argumentative people get energy from arguing, so you just can't feed that. (The advice might be different if you are a good debater, I'm not).

Things I've said that worked:
-Nasty coworker screaming at me over Zoom- "I think we need to take a step back and end this conversation because you've gotten out of control. I don't deserve to be screamed at." And then hang up.
-Nasty relative cursing me out "You have a lot of feelings about this, but I'm not interested in hearing more about this."
-If it's over email, I just don't respond.

Wow, PP. That’s insane! I would love to hear this story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It's in a semi-professional setting (not my actual job but an organization I work with). It's in my neighborhood so I will likely have to see him/interact with him in the future, even if just in passing (which is one reason why his ruthless behavior is surprising to me -- he doesn't seem to care about completely burning a bridge with me even though we live near each other and will likely interact in the future).

His most recent outburst (via email) was very intense. FWIW, several other people messaged privately after he sent it to let me know they thought it crossed a line and they support me. Which I appreciate. But I still don't know how to respond, if at all. Is there strength in just ignoring it or does that make me look scared of him? To be fair, I'm definitely very wary of him now. The aggression in his message was not subtle.

Is this generally the way he handles conflicts in his work and personal life? If so, I would stand my ground regarding the business details and ignore the personal stuff. I had a similar situation with a male in an HOA setting and it was apparent that this was the way he comported himself in his daily relationships. He was angry with me because I had found that he was responsible for damages to a communal element and retaliated with legal threats (which were ridiculous). I didn’t back down from my report to the rest of the HOA members and remained civil with him, said hello to him, never wrote a nasty reply and apart from an email to our HOA lawyer explaining my side, only discussed the situation in person or over the phone with others, never by email or text.

Six months later, the angry guy wanted to buy a pied a terre in a different city and asked me (I was HOA president) to write a recommendation letter to their co-op board. He said something awkward, like “I’m glad we could move on and work together”. It confirmed my conviction that this guy was totally fine threatening and offending people on a regular basis and then pretending like it was no big deal. Like he probably couldn’t even keep track of all the people he had threatened recently. I wrote the letter saying he paid his HOA fees on time.

If your case is similar to mine, don’t take it personally. My angry guy wanted to rattle me and make me back down, so I did the opposite - didn’t back down, ignored the toothless threats, and didn’t escalate with a war of words.

Interesting perspective (OP here). I am not really sure if he does this a lot. I do know that a couple years ago, he unilaterally severed a relationship our org had with a vendor because, according to him, the vendor was "acting unprofessional" and not responding to emails. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed like a severe reaction, as I likely would have just maintained the relationship but not hired the vendor for that project. But that's my only knowledge of his other working relationships outside of this org, where he has definitely alienated several people by being kind of demanding and severe, but has never lashed out at anyone the way he has at me.

It's very hard for me to imagine this guy ever reaching out to me as though this had not happened, at this point, though. His language was so severe and offensive. I can't imagine speaking to anyone that way, much less someone I live near and have to work with in some capacity. I am honestly more baffled than offended at this point because this behavior is just so outside the norm for what I considered professional or neighborly.

I’m the PP with the angry HOA guy. I could have said the same thing. He used a lot of expletives and threatened to sue me. And actually, now that I am thinking back, a few months after the letter request, he asked me for advice on private schools in and suggested couples’ drinks. I remember I didn’t give an excuse, and said “That’s not going to work for me”. He seriously thought it was all good between us. My two cent perspective is that he was a very wealthy guy who owned a finance company and was used to throwing his weight and wealth around. He treated people horribly at work as a matter of course and then played golf with them next weekend. The next year, his wife left him, there was some legal trouble with his company, and he moved out and I never saw him again. Hoping for a similar happy ending for you, OP.