Academic IEPs vs weak extra-curriculars

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 12th grader had an IEP from K to 11th grade. Now he has a 504.

He was born a micro-preemie, had to endure hundreds of hours of physical therapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy, to learn to chew and swallow, hold items in his hands, walk and talk. He has severe ADHD, high-functioning autism, OCD, abysmally low processing speed, and has terrible fine and gross motor skills. He cannot drive safely, despite many hours of lessons, because he has little spatial awareness and a slow reaction time. And on top of that, he has anaphylactic allergies, asthma, sleep apnea and other medical issues.

And he is graduating high school next month! He is going to college! None of this would have been possible without 18 years of therapeutical interventions, medical treatments, school services and accommodations! His slow processing speed, autism and severe ADHD will handicap him for life. He will have a hard time finding and keeping jobs.

THIS is the sort of kid who gets an IEP. You wouldn't diagnose my son with all of these issues if you met him casually: he can look you in the eye briefly and say hi. Do you really think that your child, who has successfully gone through several years of school without failing and without services and accommodations, is functionally comparable to mine?

The mind boggles at the depth of your ignorance. Do you understand how your lack of knowledge makes you criticize a system that is actually fair?

I hope you learn from my post and never impugn students with IEPs again.

I am not talking about kids with severe needs. I am talking about families who are taking advantage of a system that was meant to help kids like yours.

NP here. OP, the PP said that in 12th grade their child was dropped down from an IEP to a 504. In other words, the system does *not* see him as "severe needs". I won't try to argue the system is perfect but school-based services are often grossly insufficient and kids with IEPs face challenges behind closed doors that you would never imagine. The grass really isn't greener on our side.

No, having a 504 instead of an IEP does not mean less severity. A 504 has accommodations and IEP has accommodations AND amelioration. My son has profound severity in dyslexia and dysgraphia - by the time he was a junior, he was just getting accommodations but it did not mean his dyslexia and dysgraphia was less severe. It just meant that he didn’t have goals to improve on that and that accommodations were what he needed to access the curriculum. He gets most of the same accommodations in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, and let's say my kid needs extra support to build his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars. Who pays for that? There are no MCPS funds or aides for that.

No one gets that, even if they have an IEP. Those are not in the purview of FAPE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, and let's say my kid needs extra support to build his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars. Who pays for that? There are no MCPS funds or aides for that.

No one gets that, even if they have an IEP. Those are not in the purview of FAPE.

+1 support for "building his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars" would be from working with a therapist (outside school) to address the anxiety that is limiting participation. Or, with a college counselor who could give a push toward certain activities or helping him shape ideas/action to do something unusual outside of school-based stuff.

My son has ADHD and never wanted to do school activities. But as parents we insisted he had to do something outside of videogames so he took guitar lessons and then started playing at church and took up running on his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, and let's say my kid needs extra support to build his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars. Who pays for that? There are no MCPS funds or aides for that.

The law requires access to free and appropriate education (FAPE); children are required by law to attend school.
Extra Curricular activities are not required by law. There is no reason or basis for the comparison you are tying to make.

Moreover, you are able to attend a college with no ECs. Also many students with IEPs also cannot access ECs due to their disabilities and the fact that they don't always get accommodations in ECs. Also, many students with IEPs do engage in ECs, and some kids with IEPs for academics have superior talents in EC areas. That is not unfair to your child.

In other words you are setting up a false dichotomy here. It simply is not true that somehow kids with learning differences are advantaged over kids who don't engage in ECs. Apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, and let's say my kid needs extra support to build his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars. Who pays for that? There are no MCPS funds or aides for that.

I'm the poster with the 18 year old ADHD/ASD son.

You do not understand where the line is. IEPs save students who would fail school without services and accommodations. Everything else is the parents' responsibility.

My child had an IEP until 12th grade. We spent thousands of dollars, OP, on neuropsychological evaluations and one-on-one tutors, to help our son understand his coursework. This was not on our public school to fix. It was on us. A neuropsych today at Stixrud's costs more than 5K. It's 8 hours of testing over two days. His specialized tutors cost $90/hr for writing and up to $350/hr for math (he also has dyscalculia, a specific learning disability in math).

We debated whether to hire the services of a private college counselor, specialized in learning disabilities, but ultimately decided it was too much and we could do the same ourselves. I helped him search for colleges, helped him figure out what he wanted to write in his essays, kept an eye on deadlines, sent his scores, reminded him to ask for letters of recommendations, checked his Common App for completion, filled out the FAFSA and CSS, etc...

All this is very often the parents' job. Where I live in Bethesda, every single student has a tutor at some point, either for remediation or acceleration or both. Every family helps their kid get ahead, in academics or extra-curriculars. Many families curate their children's list of extra-curriculars early on in elementary/middle school with a view to college admissions, since a lot of skills need to be built up for years to get to a recognized talent by high school: I will do this for my neurotypical younger child! This has nothing to do with special needs, but everything to do with the arms race that is our current college admissions system!

You have to do your job, OP. No one else is going to do for you. This has nothing to do with other students' disabilities and the services and accommodations that they were allowed to receive at school.

Me again. I meant an IEP until the end of 11th grade. The reason he was given a 504 in 12th is that his public school system tries to prepare students for the type of accommodations they might receive in college, and those typically resemble 504s. I won't discuss severity of needs given the fact that autism and ADHD are lifelong challenges.

What I do want to point out is that the wealthy are able to push their children further in the game of life than the poor. The services you want for your child are your own to pay for! I think this is what you may be struggling with. My child with special needs, if he cannot live independently, will have a trust fund. I am so thankful we are in a position to do this for him. I grieve for all the disabled people on this earth whose families cannot protect them and provide a safety net. Be thankful if your child is functional and won't need your lifelong support and beyond.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My 12th grader had an IEP from K to 11th grade. Now he has a 504.

He was born a micro-preemie, had to endure hundreds of hours of physical therapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy, to learn to chew and swallow, hold items in his hands, walk and talk. He has severe ADHD, high-functioning autism, OCD, abysmally low processing speed, and has terrible fine and gross motor skills. He cannot drive safely, despite many hours of lessons, because he has little spatial awareness and a slow reaction time. And on top of that, he has anaphylactic allergies, asthma, sleep apnea and other medical issues.

And he is graduating high school next month! He is going to college! None of this would have been possible without 18 years of therapeutical interventions, medical treatments, school services and accommodations! His slow processing speed, autism and severe ADHD will handicap him for life. He will have a hard time finding and keeping jobs.

THIS is the sort of kid who gets an IEP. You wouldn't diagnose my son with all of these issues if you met him casually: he can look you in the eye briefly and say hi. Do you really think that your child, who has successfully gone through several years of school without failing and without services and accommodations, is functionally comparable to mine?

The mind boggles at the depth of your ignorance. Do you understand how your lack of knowledge makes you criticize a system that is actually fair?

I hope you learn from my post and never impugn students with IEPs again.

I am not talking about kids with severe needs. I am talking about families who are taking advantage of a system that was meant to help kids like yours.

PP's point was that their kid could very well be one of those kids you characterize as having "mild academic mental issues." Even if you've known a child for years, you may not be aware of the depth of their challenges.

Heck, I lived with my own kid for 13 years without realizing she had ADHD. She hid her inattention and massive anxiety for years, and was smart enough to make decent grades, so we all thought she was just gifted but dreamy and scattered, and unmotivated. We got her therapy for the anxiety when she finally acknowledged it, which led to the ADHD diagnosis. With therapy and medication, she's been able to expand her extracurriculars and do things we never dreamed she'd have the energy and focus to do.

But she's never been given any accommodations from the school system, because her grades in advanced classes showed that she was able to access the curriculum effectively. It didn't matter that it was wearing her out, that she was mentally and physically exhausted from trying to meet expectations and hold it together all day. That she was too worn out at the end of the day to do any kind of after-school activities, especially with the amount of homework her classes required.

That's literally all the 504/IEP does: adds accommodations and/or supports to allow students to access the curriculum. Not to help kids live their best lives. That's on us as parents.

[Anonymous]

OP, my junior is similar to yours. A solid student, good grades in rigorous classes, and plays soccer (a LOT). And that’s it. No jobs, no clubs, no volunteering. We’ve discussed how this will limit DC’s college options. And it may not really sink in until DC has some rejections in hand, but it’s been their decision. I can’t make this child be like their sibling who played sports and got great grades but also worked, volunteered and started a club and is now at a T50 college. I’m parenting the child I have, with accordant expectations about college prospects. And neither of us is pointing fingers or looking for scapegoats among their peers.

[Anonymous]

OP - I suggest you get your child screened for anxiety and start from there.

The arms race of ECs is out of control, but the key (imho) is having something unique on the resume that makes the student stand out and/or great thoughtful resumes. At SLACs your student will have a leg up because he is male.

You are correct, without something amazing he is likely not going to a top 20 school. Of well, he can join the many kids with top stats that are not. All is not lost.

[Anonymous]

Essays not resumes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, and let's say my kid needs extra support to build his resume and pursue college-worthy extra-curriculars. Who pays for that? There are no MCPS funds or aides for that.

FAPE, by law, only applies to education. ECs are not education.

Also, does your child have a diagnosed disability? Without that, no FAPE requirement and no services. Even if they gave you services, most districts claim they only have to get your kid into the average range (around 30th percentile) regardless of how smart they are. So is your kid below the 30th percentile of ECs? If he regularly does soccer, he is probably “average.”

See how much fun it is trying to get services? And how “easy” it is?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, my junior is similar to yours. A solid student, good grades in rigorous classes, and plays soccer (a LOT). And that’s it. No jobs, no clubs, no volunteering. We’ve discussed how this will limit DC’s college options. And it may not really sink in until DC has some rejections in hand, but it’s been their decision. I can’t make this child be like their sibling who played sports and got great grades but also worked, volunteered and started a club and is now at a T50 college. I’m parenting the child I have, with accordant expectations about college prospects. And neither of us is pointing fingers or looking for scapegoats among their peers.

I don't get leaving it up to "their decision" to not have a job or volunteering in HS. What do they do in the summer? My DS didn't want to do much in ECs but a summer job is non-negotiable. He wouldn't have made an effort to volunteer but we volunteer together as a family, again, not a choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My junior son is smart, does his homework, cares about school, and has a 4.0+ GPA. However, he refuses to do any extra-curricular activities aside from soccer. I think it's a mental block, he is afraid of change and unpredictability. It's been an issue his whole life, and I've tried to push him but he refuses. Now that we're applying for colleges, I realize what a detriment this lack of extra-curriculars is to his applications. Meanwhile, he has friends who don't have the same mental block about ECs, but they do have exemptions at school because of various mild academic mental issues. They get extra time on tests, they get extensions on assignments, they get extra help paid for by MCPS. They have the same GPA as he does, but they also have the ECs. I don't think this is fair. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, but some types of weakness receive extra school funding and institutional exemptions, while others don't. Can someone explain this to me how this is fair?

WOW. Just another incredible DCUM parent. As a parent with a child who DOES GET ACCOMODATIONS...let me tell you something. Extra time on tests....do you know what its like for a kid with ADHD and Dyslexia who spends twice the amount of time TRYING to access the material that YOUR child can access without issue in HALF the time? I'm not even going to finish my argument because its not worth it.

[Anonymous]

Let me get this straight. Your kid clearly has anxiety. You did nothing about it and are saying it’s unfair that others got their kids the help they need?

Are you f-ing kidding me? Do you know how much time and money I’ve spent on testing, therapy, meetings with the school to get an IEP, tutors, etc?

Did you even get your kid diagnosed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Let me get this straight. Your kid clearly has anxiety. You did nothing about it and are saying it’s unfair that others got their kids the help they need?

Are you f-ing kidding me? Do you know how much time and money I’ve spent on testing, therapy, meetings with the school to get an IEP, tutors, etc?

Did you even get your kid diagnosed?

Also even with all that my kid has no where near a 4.0. At least educate yourself on special needs and the IEP process. You sound like a fool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My 12th grader had an IEP from K to 11th grade. Now he has a 504.

He was born a micro-preemie, had to endure hundreds of hours of physical therapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy, to learn to chew and swallow, hold items in his hands, walk and talk. He has severe ADHD, high-functioning autism, OCD, abysmally low processing speed, and has terrible fine and gross motor skills. He cannot drive safely, despite many hours of lessons, because he has little spatial awareness and a slow reaction time. And on top of that, he has anaphylactic allergies, asthma, sleep apnea and other medical issues.

And he is graduating high school next month! He is going to college! None of this would have been possible without 18 years of therapeutical interventions, medical treatments, school services and accommodations! His slow processing speed, autism and severe ADHD will handicap him for life. He will have a hard time finding and keeping jobs.

THIS is the sort of kid who gets an IEP. You wouldn't diagnose my son with all of these issues if you met him casually: he can look you in the eye briefly and say hi. Do you really think that your child, who has successfully gone through several years of school without failing and without services and accommodations, is functionally comparable to mine?

The mind boggles at the depth of your ignorance. Do you understand how your lack of knowledge makes you criticize a system that is actually fair?

I hope you learn from my post and never impugn students with IEPs again.

I am not talking about kids with severe needs. I am talking about families who are taking advantage of a system that was meant to help kids like yours.

PP's point was that their kid could very well be one of those kids you characterize as having "mild academic mental issues." Even if you've known a child for years, you may not be aware of the depth of their challenges.

Heck, I lived with my own kid for 13 years without realizing she had ADHD. She hid her inattention and massive anxiety for years, and was smart enough to make decent grades, so we all thought she was just gifted but dreamy and scattered, and unmotivated. We got her therapy for the anxiety when she finally acknowledged it, which led to the ADHD diagnosis. With therapy and medication, she's been able to expand her extracurriculars and do things we never dreamed she'd have the energy and focus to do.

But she's never been given any accommodations from the school system, because her grades in advanced classes showed that she was able to access the curriculum effectively. It didn't matter that it was wearing her out, that she was mentally and physically exhausted from trying to meet expectations and hold it together all day. That she was too worn out at the end of the day to do any kind of after-school activities, especially with the amount of homework her classes required.

That's literally all the 504/IEP does: adds accommodations and/or supports to allow students to access the curriculum. Not to help kids live their best lives. That's on us as parents.

I could have written this, except, once mine got the diagnosis, she did get accommodations. But, I could not get school to help with diagnosis because she exceeded the benchmarks. PP, if it might still help your kid, the diagnosis and Dr. recommendations should be enough to get a 504. That and meds have been really helpful for mine. Also helpful for her was doing research on bias in adhd diagnosis for a school project-- it is harder to diagnose in girls because many of the observational criteria are more specific to how it expresses in boys. Made her feel vindicated and empowered. Good luck to yours!