Spanking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:FYI, spanking is not discipline. It's punishment. Discipline teaches, punishment punishes and then scares. If that's what you want to do fine, but let's call it what it is. Lots of things "work" with kids but that doesn't mean they are effective in the long run. It would also be really quick and easy for me to give in to every single thing my 3 year old wants. We'd never have tantrums and he'd be happy as a clam. I'd also be raising a monster. No one likes disciplining their kid, but you are raising an adult, not a kid and you have to think about who you want that adult to be. Teaching children to think through their actions, to explain cause-and-effect and to think, will help them much more in the long run. Not to mention that children learn all about what to expect in relationships from their parents. I certainly wouldn't allow someone to hit me when they didn't like something I did so why should our children expect to be hit? Sure, there are lots of things kids can't do or expect, that adults can, but there is nothing about respect and the give and take of a relationship that differs, whether you are talking about an adult or a child.

As for the studies, yes they are mixed. Some of them are garbage (on both sides). And generally, if children are in a loving home where their needs are met they will probably be fine whether you spank or not. But there is absolutely no evidence that it works, in the long term, to teach kids anything about behavior, relationships, or consequences.

It definitely teaches about consequences. However, it's certainly not the ONLY thing you would ever do in terms of teaching and discipline, so saying that it works, but doesn't teach about "relationships" is more than a little disingenuous. It's a punishment to correct bad behavior in that moment. If it works in the short term, it works.

"If it works in the short term, it works." Nope. Not even close to true for many things in life, especially raising a child - in which, short term fixes rarely work for anything long term. Every single minute of a child's development is the way in which they learn about the world. Short cuts happen because they have to for parents to be sane and functional. But just because something appears to "work" in the short term, says nothing about how it works over the long term. Spanking "works" in the short term for PARENTS. It never "works" for kids.

Also, even if you don't buy into the "spanking does harm" literature...what's the defense for it? What's the argument against teaching your children about respect, kindness, gentleness, and appropriate boundaries? My son knows it is never okay to hurt someone - himself, other people, animals. There are no exceptions to this rule. I teach him that because I believe it's just as true for adults as for kids. Inflicting physical pain or threat is never the way I want anyone in my life to act, much less a lesson I want my son to learn.

If you believe that it's never OK to punish a child in any form, I think you're a little bit wacky, but nobody could say that you're logically inconsistent or hypocritical. However, if you believe that sometimes, some form of punishment is appropriate (including punishments that would not be considered appropriate for your coworker), then you're arguments are meaningless by logical fallacy.

What I believe is that PHYSICAL punishment is never okay. Under any circumstances. For anyone in my life. Ever. No logical fallacy there. I will not hit anyone, nor allow anyone I love to be hit. Adult or child.

If that's what you believe, you should actually explain that, and why. Not make half-witted and irrelevant analogies to coworkers.

PP here - I am not the one who posted about co-workers. Sorry if there was confusion there. I never said anything about co-workers. I think multiple threads are being confused. To the PP who asked why I don't believe in physical punishment - I don't believe anyone should be physically hurt by another person as punishment. I don't believe it's effective and more importantly, I don't believe that that's how we should treat each other. Adults or children.

On what grounds have you determined that it's ineffective? Because the rest of your response is just a textbook example of begging the question; i.e. "I don't believe in it because I don't believe anyone should do it."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What do spankers make of all the average to well behaved children whose parents haven't/wouldn't spank? Given that it's obviously possible to raise children with fine behavior without resorting to spanking, what is the appeal of dpanking? Do you believe it works "faster"? Or do you not believe that there are lots of well behaved children whose parents would never spank?

I'm not looking for simply average-behaved kids, especially not by DCUM standards. Additionally, I want to do as little disciplining as possible, and spend the most time as possible in a non-disciplinary mode. I don't want to be enforcing timeouts, or spending my parenting energy managing various lost and restored privileges for each kid. No, I prefer simple, concrete, swift and effective discipline that is over and done with just as quickly. That's the advantage.

+1000

So ... what do you do if your 3 year old misbehaves in public?

np. The possibility of a spanking is usually enough, but in maybe one instance, we went to the car.

Wow, if you spank your 3 year old enough to have them cowed into 100% good behavior in public ... that's a lot of spanking/scaring.

You make a lot of strawman assumptions, but it's not that often, and it's obviously more effective than alternatives (with a lot less total punishing).

Whatever. Spanking is trashy. I feel sorry for your kid.

Ahh yes, and we see that what was initially masquerading as educated discourse ultimately crumbles into the tedious old DCUM slurs. So convincing, you are.

lol, you're the one posing freshman dorm style questioning as "educated discourse" for a question that the rest of us consider obvious: don't hurt your kid.

[Anonymous]

There are no studies suggesting it's effective. There are some studies suggesting it does no harm, but no studies of effectiveness. If you want to argue that it could be effective but we just don't have studies of it - fine - but that's not "evidence" either.

As for the rest of my response, I don't believe people should hit. It's hurtful. And it involves doing something to someone else's body that they do not want and did not consent to. I am not sure how that begs the question.

I don't believe people should be hit and I choose to live my life and parent in accord with that belief. That's no different than any of the other 1,000 of beliefs that we all hold.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do spankers make of all the average to well behaved children whose parents haven't/wouldn't spank? Given that it's obviously possible to raise children with fine behavior without resorting to spanking, what is the appeal of dpanking? Do you believe it works "faster"? Or do you not believe that there are lots of well behaved children whose parents would never spank?

I'm not looking for simply average-behaved kids, especially not by DCUM standards. Additionally, I want to do as little disciplining as possible, and spend the most time as possible in a non-disciplinary mode. I don't want to be enforcing timeouts, or spending my parenting energy managing various lost and restored privileges for each kid. No, I prefer simple, concrete, swift and effective discipline that is over and done with just as quickly. That's the advantage.

+1000

So ... what do you do if your 3 year old misbehaves in public?

np. The possibility of a spanking is usually enough, but in maybe one instance, we went to the car.

Wow, if you spank your 3 year old enough to have them cowed into 100% good behavior in public ... that's a lot of spanking/scaring.

You make a lot of strawman assumptions, but it's not that often, and it's obviously more effective than alternatives (with a lot less total punishing).

Whatever. Spanking is trashy. I feel sorry for your kid.

Ahh yes, and we see that what was initially masquerading as educated discourse ultimately crumbles into the tedious old DCUM slurs. So convincing, you are.

lol, you're the one posing freshman dorm style questioning as "educated discourse" for a question that the rest of us consider obvious: don't hurt your kid.

When 90% of parents use it at some point and similar numbers agree that it's at least sometimes appropriate, and there are 19 pages of arguments on this thread, it's difficult to accept your assertion that "the rest" consider your opinion on the matter obvious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies suggesting it's effective. There are some studies suggesting it does no harm, but no studies of effectiveness. If you want to argue that it could be effective but we just don't have studies of it - fine - but that's not "evidence" either.

As for the rest of my response, I don't believe people should hit. It's hurtful. And it involves doing something to someone else's body that they do not want and did not consent to. I am not sure how that begs the question.

I don't believe people should be hit and I choose to live my life and parent in accord with that belief. That's no different than any of the other 1,000 of beliefs that we all hold.

np. That's actually not true, there have been studies showing that it's effective. The key is how the researchers design the study. When they properly control for demographics and degree of spanking (not including obviously abusive situations), it suddenly becomes effective.

In fact, I've never seen a properly controlled study that said it's ineffective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies suggesting it's effective. There are some studies suggesting it does no harm, but no studies of effectiveness. If you want to argue that it could be effective but we just don't have studies of it - fine - but that's not "evidence" either.

As for the rest of my response, I don't believe people should hit. It's hurtful. And it involves doing something to someone else's body that they do not want and did not consent to. I am not sure how that begs the question.

I don't believe people should be hit and I choose to live my life and parent in accord with that belief. That's no different than any of the other 1,000 of beliefs that we all hold.

np. That's actually not true, there have been studies showing that it's effective. The key is how the researchers design the study. When they properly control for demographics and degree of spanking (not including obviously abusive situations), it suddenly becomes effective.

In fact, I've never seen a properly controlled study that said it's ineffective.

Oh yeah, here's the link I intended to share. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/25/us/findings-give-some-support-to-advocates-of-spanking.html?pagewanted=all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, many/most parents still spank, occasionally or frequently.

Depending on the study, 50-90% of parents have spanked their minor children.

What?! No! I know only ONE person who admits to spanking and at least 100 parents who deny it? Half to most are lying?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, many/most parents still spank, occasionally or frequently.

Depending on the study, 50-90% of parents have spanked their minor children.

What?! No! I know only ONE person who admits to spanking and at least 100 parents who deny it? Half to most are lying?!

Are you familiar with the term "selection bias"?

http://archive.boston.com/community/moms/articles/2012/06/17/what_if_spanking_works/?page=full

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, many/most parents still spank, occasionally or frequently.

Depending on the study, 50-90% of parents have spanked their minor children.

What?! No! I know only ONE person who admits to spanking and at least 100 parents who deny it? Half to most are lying?!

Selection bias, as PP said, and yes, many are probably lying. You obviously seem biased against the choice, so it's not surprising that they wouldn't be so forthcoming with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no studies suggesting it's effective. There are some studies suggesting it does no harm, but no studies of effectiveness. If you want to argue that it could be effective but we just don't have studies of it - fine - but that's not "evidence" either.

As for the rest of my response, I don't believe people should hit. It's hurtful. And it involves doing something to someone else's body that they do not want and did not consent to. I am not sure how that begs the question.

I don't believe people should be hit and I choose to live my life and parent in accord with that belief. That's no different than any of the other 1,000 of beliefs that we all hold.

np. That's actually not true, there have been studies showing that it's effective. The key is how the researchers design the study. When they properly control for demographics and degree of spanking (not including obviously abusive situations), it suddenly becomes effective.

In fact, I've never seen a properly controlled study that said it's ineffective.

Oh yeah, here's the link I intended to share. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/25/us/findings-give-some-support-to-advocates-of-spanking.html?pagewanted=all

The link you shared describes well the fact that the evidence is mixed. There are a few limited correlations with lowered problem behaviors in some studies, true. And that same article details other studies where detrimental effects have been found. The reality is that there has never been a properly controlled study of spanking - on either side. And there never will be. Because hard experimental evidence would come from a randomized controlled trial. And no study is going to be approved that randomizes parents to spanking their children or not. So we will all have to live with the correlational studies we have and parse them as best we can.

As I said before, in the context of a loving home where a child's needs are met, I am sure occasional spanking will do no harm. If that is the choice you want to make as a parent, so be it. But my choice is to never use physical punishment. Some of my reasoning for that comes from the limited studies that have been done, some of it comes from my professional life and my knowledge of the child development literature broadly (Ph.D. in developmental psychology), and the rest of it comes from a belief I hold about how we should treat people and how we should not subject anyone to physical harm for the purposes of punishment. For me it was never a consideration.

[Anonymous]

Gambit wrote:Our DS recently learned that I am the bad cop.

Explain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, many/most parents still spank, occasionally or frequently.

Depending on the study, 50-90% of parents have spanked their minor children.

What?! No! I know only ONE person who admits to spanking and at least 100 parents who deny it? Half to most are lying?!

Millenials believe in spanking more than boomers, and as a group, millenials are more educated than the boomer generation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/03/05/millennials-like-to-spank-their-kids-just-as-much-as-their-parents-did/

[Anonymous]

Gambit wrote:You never heard of "Good cop, bad cop"?
DW is the good cop. I'm the bad cop. I'm the one that does the disciplining.

During one particularly troublesome morning, DS caught himself a thorough spanking. The next day, he was a perfect little angel. On the ride to school, he said to DW "Mommy, you're the good cop"
DW asked, "oh, and who is daddy?"
DS said "daddy is the bad cop."

I guess he heard us talking about good cop, bad cop.

What is a "thorough spanking," and for what infraction?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, many/most parents still spank, occasionally or frequently.

Depending on the study, 50-90% of parents have spanked their minor children.

What?! No! I know only ONE person who admits to spanking and at least 100 parents who deny it? Half to most are lying?!

Millenials believe in spanking more than boomers, and as a group, millenials are more educated than the boomer generation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/03/05/millennials-like-to-spank-their-kids-just-as-much-as-their-parents-did/

I'm not entirely surprised.

[Anonymous]

Gambit wrote:You never heard of "Good cop, bad cop"?
DW is the good cop. I'm the bad cop. I'm the one that does the disciplining.

During one particularly troublesome morning, DS caught himself a thorough spanking. The next day, he was a perfect little angel. On the ride to school, he said to DW "Mommy, you're the good cop"
DW asked, "oh, and who is daddy?"
DS said "daddy is the bad cop."

I guess he heard us talking about good cop, bad cop.

So DS was having a tricky morning, you hit him, and the next day he's an angel. Do you feel good that using violence and beating your child made him behave better? If my husband hit me, I'd certainly stop doing whatever it was that annoyed him so that he wouldn't hit me again - but I could also report that to the police as that is domestic abuse.And I'd also hate him for humiliating me and harming me, just because he's bigger and stronger than I am. Are you pleased that your son sees you as the bad cop? That you are the one that hits when he does something you don't like? How sad that your kid will now think that people hit as a way of telling someone to quit doing something.