DW doesn’t understand how a sexless marriage effects me

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

So in your vows you mention you can have sex with other people? If not, it is cheating

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hate these posts. I don’t want to sound like a “pick me” girl but unless your husband is abusive, very selfish, or possesses some major personality flaw, just have sex! I lost my libido while breastfeeding and I’m chronically tired from a toddler that doesn’t sleep still but I make sure I have sex 1x a week at minimum which is usually all I manage at this point. Men aren’t horny teens for wanting a basic human desire. So I’m sorry you are in a sexless marriage and you shouldn’t have to compromise on that point if you are a decent husband. Start marriage counseling and work towards adding it back into your routines (because that is what is becomes for a lot of women in middle age).

Just wait. You too may hit a point where not only do you have zero libido, but sex shreds the tissue paper thin skin of your menopausal body into a bloody wounds, such that walking, sitting, urinating, showering and pretty much everything hurts for a week after, then what? Let him do that to you routinely? Where is the mutual love and respect in a marriage that would allow that abuse?

This! I never thought intimacy would be so terribly painful, but at 60, that is how it is.

I thought I would pass out from the pain the last time.

And yes I have been to the doctor. And tried lube and drugs.

You’re doing it wrong. Sex is pleasurable, NOT painful. Stop doing things that hurt. Only do things that feel good. Change your definition of “sex” accordingly.

I cannot believe I actually have to give somebody such completely obvious advice.

Ha. Did you go to history class? Women undergoing pain for a man’s pleasure or convenience is a practically a baseline expectation, so telling a woman not to do it isn’t obvious, it’s revolutionary.

Don't be a martyr. You can both do a lot of things with tongues and mouths and hands. There's a big gap between, on the one hand, having to endure painful PiV because of the patriarchy and, on the other hand, living the rest of your life in celibacy because that particular sex act doesn't work for you anymore.

So "servicing" a petulant man. And what is he doing for her?

Going to the ballet, looking at furniture, going out on dates, throwing parties and spending time with her friends, talking about Real Housewives.

My parents and their friends are in their 60’s. There is a lot that men do for women that they don’t want to do. I hope these men are getting occasional blowjobs.

none of those things those men do for their women require their physical bodies.

If you think a woman should service a man without her being into it, then how is that any different than what a prostitute does?

You think men are astral projecting themselves to the ballet?

You know what I mean.. being "present" at a ballet doesn't require him using his body as a sexual instrument.

I hate the ballet, fwiw.

Why is sex some kind of special other activity?
Have you seen the YouTube video about tea and consent?
It’s like that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8


If your husband is an otherwise good guy, and he really wants you to drink tea sometimes, shouldn’t you drink it? I mean, if the kind he usually makes causes you to vomit, then ask for a different kind of tea or maybe even coffee. If he isn’t okay with that, then I agree he’s a jerk. But most men are. They just want to drink a hot beverage with you sometimes!

I love this video, but it really only works for situations like young people hooking up. The thing about tea is that you can have a satisfying cup of tea by yourself. If you want a more appropriate analog for sex in marriage, it would be something more like playing tennis. If you’ve been playing tennis together and then your partner doesn’t want to play tennis anymore, fine, they should be able to make that choice, but then you should be free to play tennis with someone else. Asserting bodily autonomy to justify not having sex is reasonable as long as you don’t try to deny your partner the bodily autonomy of having sex with someone else instead.

Exactly. A spouse is free to opt out of sex (WITHOUT needing up front mutual agreement). Their partner is then free to opt out of monogamy (WITHOUT needing up front mutual agreement).

I think there are plenty of comments around here that are way too dismissive of the importance of sex in a marriage; but, even so, this is not how marriages work. I get that you think that this is only fair. But, it's still not how marriages work. A woman is entitled to say "no" for a night, a week, a month, or the rest of her life. She doesn't have to announce a grand plan for long term sexlessness -- maybe she doesn't even know that's what is going to happen. (Although, if she just decides not to talk about it, she has to know that the the quality of the marriage will degrade and really shouldn't express surprise if it ends.) That said, fair or unfair, if a spouse is going to go outside the marriage without talking about it, he or she is a cheater. This is a betrayal. The honorable thing to do is 1) express your dissatisfaction and try to reach a compromise; 2) if #1 doesn't work and you want to try to open up your marriage, have a conversation with your spouse about it; and 3) if your spouse is unwilling to sanction an open marriage and you are unwilling to continue living without sex, get a divorce.

I know all of that is a rehash of stuff that's been said a million times before, but I guess I felt compelled to make it a million and one.

Where did I ever suggest not talking about it? “I have decided to open our marriage. Don’t wait up for me Friday night.” This is totally sufficient. Not betrayal and not cheating. The sexless spouse is now free to divorce (but why would they since sex is so unimportant).

And I would say "don't bother coming home" Locks will be changed and you will leave.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This could be considered constructive desertion of the marriage and is grounds for divorce.

I divorced my ex when she did this. It wasn’t easy but like you I wasn’t going to cheat and after about seven years I decided I couldn’t live with the cruelty anymore.

I ended up with primary physical custody as the kids, who were teens, didn’t want to live with her. Turns out they felt as alienated from her affections as me.

In hindsight I realize she had some mental illness issues that contributed to this. And she actually WAS getting help for that but it turns out the therapist was counseling her to “self-actualize” and she took that to extremes and decided her family was the source of her unhappiness.

Five years later, me and the girls are ok. It’s bittersweet— I miss their younger years when we were an intact family. But even when I look back on those things now, I realize it was only ever me taking the girls somewhere solo from the time there were about 5 and 7. She was always demanding “me time” and sitting in bed, on her computer or whatever.

My story made you nervous, I see.

dp No but you aren't telling the full story

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

A consensual open marriage is a lifestyle choice.

Sleeping with someone outside your marriage without your spouses knowledge, is cheating.

The latter may cost you in divorce court— for example you can lose alimony, be held at fault— the former will not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

So in your vows you mention you can have sex with other people? If not, it is cheating

No of course opening the marriage is not in the vows! But forced celibacy isn’t in the vows either so I guess there are things that happen within a marriage which aren’t in the vows?

An open marriage is not cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

So in your vows you mention you can have sex with other people? If not, it is cheating

No of course opening the marriage is not in the vows! But forced celibacy isn’t in the vows either so I guess there are things that happen within a marriage which aren’t in the vows?

An open marriage is not cheating.

And an open marriage isn’t a secret from one of the parties in the marriage.

For example if he gets on a dating app and claims to be in an Open Marriage, his potential partners are being led to believe that his wife is aware her husband is sleeping with other women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

A consensual open marriage is a lifestyle choice.

Sleeping with someone outside your marriage without your spouses knowledge, is cheating.

The latter may cost you in divorce court— for example you can lose alimony, be held at fault— the former will not.

She consents to their open marriage by not divorcing him. And she won’t divorce over some trivial unimportant thing like sex (this is what she believes).

She WILL know that he’s sleeping with other women because he’s told her the marriage is open. Was this point unclear?

They won’t divorce because there is no reason to, she’s perfectly content in their sexless marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

So in your vows you mention you can have sex with other people? If not, it is cheating

No of course opening the marriage is not in the vows! But forced celibacy isn’t in the vows either so I guess there are things that happen within a marriage which aren’t in the vows?

An open marriage is not cheating.

Yes it’s— it’s the “in sickness” and “for worse”.

For example when military spouses are deployed, their spouses do not get to unilaterally declare their marriage open because their spouse has “chosen” to make them celibate for a time.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

A consensual open marriage is a lifestyle choice.

Sleeping with someone outside your marriage without your spouses knowledge, is cheating.

The latter may cost you in divorce court— for example you can lose alimony, be held at fault— the former will not.

She consents to their open marriage by not divorcing him. And she won’t divorce over some trivial unimportant thing like sex (this is what she believes).

She WILL know that he’s sleeping with other women because he’s told her the marriage is open. Was this point unclear?

They won’t divorce because there is no reason to, she’s perfectly content in their sexless marriage.

Oh, I missed the part where he tells her. And she says “I don’t agree”.

What happens then is that she collects the high degree of proof required for at-fault divorce in VA. He is divorced for infidelity and the thing he says he wants to avoid— his daughter seeing him as a cheater— comes to pass.

I’m sorry this just doesn’t work out the way you think it does.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

A consensual open marriage is a lifestyle choice.

Sleeping with someone outside your marriage without your spouses knowledge, is cheating.

The latter may cost you in divorce court— for example you can lose alimony, be held at fault— the former will not.

She consents to their open marriage by not divorcing him. And she won’t divorce over some trivial unimportant thing like sex (this is what she believes).

She WILL know that he’s sleeping with other women because he’s told her the marriage is open. Was this point unclear?

They won’t divorce because there is no reason to, she’s perfectly content in their sexless marriage.

Oh, I missed the part where he tells her. And she says “I don’t agree”.

What happens then is that she collects the high degree of proof required for at-fault divorce in VA. He is divorced for infidelity and the thing he says he wants to avoid— his daughter seeing him as a cheater— comes to pass.

I’m sorry this just doesn’t work out the way you think it does.

There’s another possibility, which is that the wife would be interested in finding her own AP, and wouldn’t mind the open marriage opportunity. Then she’ll have as many guys as she wants and he’ll be putting in tons of work and money and being frustrated by how hard it is for an average middle aged guy to find his own AP. The asymmetry would motivate him to keep things secret from her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

This feels like blame shifting. Some of us have this sort of situation and we’re already putting in much more work than our spouses and still being denied. It may truly not be possibly to do make oneself sexually desirable to him or her. Making it sound like we’re just not trying hard enough comes across as insensitive and dismissive.

It may seem insensitive and dismissive, but whenever someone is asked what they do to ensure their spouse can participate in a fulfilling sex life, we hear all about how he can’t possibly have been expected to help with babies so she could get pelvic floor PT, or how he’s not interested in making time in their schedule for vacations with childcare or time for her to have to herself. Basically it tends to come down to “nothing” when asked what they’re doing to make themselves a desirable partner.

But sure, let’s hear what OP is putting into making their marriage a place for his wife to have a happy and fulfilling sex life other than just showing up.

PP. yeah, agree that the OP should come back and fill in these kinds of details. Maybe he’s not putting in any effort and the wife is backing off. Maybe he’s a supportive partner and she’s just going through a rough patch for some reason. Maybe he’s a gem and she’s a harpy. We just don’t know. Over the years DCUM has had stories of sex denial from the whole spectrum, and with both men and women, so there probably aren’t easy solutions for all.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

A consensual open marriage is a lifestyle choice.

Sleeping with someone outside your marriage without your spouses knowledge, is cheating.

The latter may cost you in divorce court— for example you can lose alimony, be held at fault— the former will not.

She consents to their open marriage by not divorcing him. And she won’t divorce over some trivial unimportant thing like sex (this is what she believes).

She WILL know that he’s sleeping with other women because he’s told her the marriage is open. Was this point unclear?

They won’t divorce because there is no reason to, she’s perfectly content in their sexless marriage.

Oh, I missed the part where he tells her. And she says “I don’t agree”.

What happens then is that she collects the high degree of proof required for at-fault divorce in VA. He is divorced for infidelity and the thing he says he wants to avoid— his daughter seeing him as a cheater— comes to pass.

I’m sorry this just doesn’t work out the way you think it does.

There’s another possibility, which is that the wife would be interested in finding her own AP, and wouldn’t mind the open marriage opportunity. Then she’ll have as many guys as she wants and he’ll be putting in tons of work and money and being frustrated by how hard it is for an average middle aged guy to find his own AP. The asymmetry would motivate him to keep things secret from her.

Yeah I’m pretty sure there was an AITA for this where the guy wanted to close things up when he realized how little interest anyone else has in sex with him.

An ethical open marriage has financial provision for existing children, STD testing, and long-term or permanent birth control for both parties. It’s not just one party opening the marriage because the other party doesn’t want to sleep with them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I hate these posts. I don’t want to sound like a “pick me” girl but unless your husband is abusive, very selfish, or possesses some major personality flaw, just have sex! I lost my libido while breastfeeding and I’m chronically tired from a toddler that doesn’t sleep still but I make sure I have sex 1x a week at minimum which is usually all I manage at this point. Men aren’t horny teens for wanting a basic human desire. So I’m sorry you are in a sexless marriage and you shouldn’t have to compromise on that point if you are a decent husband. Start marriage counseling and work towards adding it back into your routines (because that is what is becomes for a lot of women in middle age).

Just wait. You too may hit a point where not only do you have zero libido, but sex shreds the tissue paper thin skin of your menopausal body into a bloody wounds, such that walking, sitting, urinating, showering and pretty much everything hurts for a week after, then what? Let him do that to you routinely? Where is the mutual love and respect in a marriage that would allow that abuse?

If you did that to me and I was part owner of said house, I’d have you in handcuffs.
This! I never thought intimacy would be so terribly painful, but at 60, that is how it is.

I thought I would pass out from the pain the last time.

And yes I have been to the doctor. And tried lube and drugs.

You’re doing it wrong. Sex is pleasurable, NOT painful. Stop doing things that hurt. Only do things that feel good. Change your definition of “sex” accordingly.

I cannot believe I actually have to give somebody such completely obvious advice.

Ha. Did you go to history class? Women undergoing pain for a man’s pleasure or convenience is a practically a baseline expectation, so telling a woman not to do it isn’t obvious, it’s revolutionary.

Don't be a martyr. You can both do a lot of things with tongues and mouths and hands. There's a big gap between, on the one hand, having to endure painful PiV because of the patriarchy and, on the other hand, living the rest of your life in celibacy because that particular sex act doesn't work for you anymore.

So "servicing" a petulant man. And what is he doing for her?

Going to the ballet, looking at furniture, going out on dates, throwing parties and spending time with her friends, talking about Real Housewives.

My parents and their friends are in their 60’s. There is a lot that men do for women that they don’t want to do. I hope these men are getting occasional blowjobs.

none of those things those men do for their women require their physical bodies.

If you think a woman should service a man without her being into it, then how is that any different than what a prostitute does?

You think men are astral projecting themselves to the ballet?

You know what I mean.. being "present" at a ballet doesn't require him using his body as a sexual instrument.

I hate the ballet, fwiw.

Why is sex some kind of special other activity?
Have you seen the YouTube video about tea and consent?
It’s like that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8


If your husband is an otherwise good guy, and he really wants you to drink tea sometimes, shouldn’t you drink it? I mean, if the kind he usually makes causes you to vomit, then ask for a different kind of tea or maybe even coffee. If he isn’t okay with that, then I agree he’s a jerk. But most men are. They just want to drink a hot beverage with you sometimes!

I love this video, but it really only works for situations like young people hooking up. The thing about tea is that you can have a satisfying cup of tea by yourself. If you want a more appropriate analog for sex in marriage, it would be something more like playing tennis. If you’ve been playing tennis together and then your partner doesn’t want to play tennis anymore, fine, they should be able to make that choice, but then you should be free to play tennis with someone else. Asserting bodily autonomy to justify not having sex is reasonable as long as you don’t try to deny your partner the bodily autonomy of having sex with someone else instead.

Exactly. A spouse is free to opt out of sex (WITHOUT needing up front mutual agreement). Their partner is then free to opt out of monogamy (WITHOUT needing up front mutual agreement).

I think there are plenty of comments around here that are way too dismissive of the importance of sex in a marriage; but, even so, this is not how marriages work. I get that you think that this is only fair. But, it's still not how marriages work. A woman is entitled to say "no" for a night, a week, a month, or the rest of her life. She doesn't have to announce a grand plan for long term sexlessness -- maybe she doesn't even know that's what is going to happen. (Although, if she just decides not to talk about it, she has to know that the the quality of the marriage will degrade and really shouldn't express surprise if it ends.) That said, fair or unfair, if a spouse is going to go outside the marriage without talking about it, he or she is a cheater. This is a betrayal. The honorable thing to do is 1) express your dissatisfaction and try to reach a compromise; 2) if #1 doesn't work and you want to try to open up your marriage, have a conversation with your spouse about it; and 3) if your spouse is unwilling to sanction an open marriage and you are unwilling to continue living without sex, get a divorce.

I know all of that is a rehash of stuff that's been said a million times before, but I guess I felt compelled to make it a million and one.

Where did I ever suggest not talking about it? “I have decided to open our marriage. Don’t wait up for me Friday night.” This is totally sufficient. Not betrayal and not cheating. The sexless spouse is now free to divorce (but why would they since sex is so unimportant).

And I would say "don't bother coming home" Locks will be changed and you will leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, once she hits 30 days without cooperating in sex, she’s de facto opened the relationship.

Agree 100% you have our permission now go out and get laid! She wants to be your room mate treat her as such.

ultimatums really don't work. I guess you are both ok with divorcing.

Know what else doesn’t work? Status quo sexless marriage. Why would they divorce?!? She’s perfectly content and once he’s found a girlfriend or 2 on the side their marriage will be perfect. Another sexless marriage saved by outsourcing.

Famous last words, right before you get served with divorce papers.

Mature adults who take marriage seriously do not divorce over trivial unimportant things. His wife says sex is not important: so no big deal when he does that unimportant thing with other women.

He doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a gross cheater. So he has to…not cheat. Can’t get everything you want all the time.

His wife has opted out of the sex part of marriage which means "cheating" no longer exists. What kind of sick family are you in where your kids know details about your sex life (or lack thereof)?!?

When they divorce because OP cheats, his daughter will find out he cheated. His OP says he doesn’t want his daughter to see him like that, so that option is unavailable to him.

…and no, his daughter will not care about his sad sad sex life when he wrecks her childhood home.

OP doesn’t need to divorce if he cheats. Many families turn a blind eye. It would certainly be an expectation for a wife who doesn’t want to have sex anymore. Outsource and have a pleasant life.

He does if his wife hasn’t agreed.

And then when the daughter asks why they divorced, she will tell her daughter it was because of infidelity. Divorce for cause doesn’t give a darn about “she didn’t have enough sex for me”.

So if the OP is truly concerned his daughter not see him as a cheater, he has no choice but to not cheat.

To deal with his sex issue he needs to make himself someone his wife finds sexually desirable. Most people who come here to complain don’t want to put in that work.

There is nothing for her to agree to. She is sexless so she does not get to vote on him opening the marriage. She is free to leave and divorce but she won’t (because she says sex isn’t important and people don’t divorce over unimportant things).

Again his daughter is not involved with their sex life so why do you keep bringing up this non-issue?

Because the thing he says keeps him from cheating is that he doesn’t want his daughter to see him as a cheater. There is no way to square the circle of “being a cheater” and “not wanting my daughter to see me as a cheater”.

His wife gets a vote if she wants to stay with a cheater. In VA you only get for-cause divorce for infidelity if you don’t consent.

An open marriage is a lifestyle choice. Not cheating! Much like sexlessness is a lifestyle choice. Ideally these kinds of choices aren’t made unilaterally but his sexless wife has brought this into their marriage. Yes she could leave their open marriage but she won’t because sex is unimportant (per her).

So in your vows you mention you can have sex with other people? If not, it is cheating

No of course opening the marriage is not in the vows! But forced celibacy isn’t in the vows either so I guess there are things that happen within a marriage which aren’t in the vows?

An open marriage is not cheating.

Yes it’s— it’s the “in sickness” and “for worse”.

For example when military spouses are deployed, their spouses do not get to unilaterally declare their marriage open because their spouse has “chosen” to make them celibate for a time.

Foresaking all others.