NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

Same with daycare workers. After initial shut downs, daycare workers went back to work by summer 2020. We have a massive childcare shortage in this country, and daycare workers don't make anything close to what teachers make. They are on their feet all day and dealing with young kids. I'm sure daycare workers get annoyed with parents all the time. And yet threads on the childcare shortage don't devolve into a bunch of daycare workers complaining about how they have to quit their jobs because too many parents emailed them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

Thank you. It's honestly insane how this subtopic started by a parent trying to say that we should view each other as partners and within two pages we're here again.

[Anonymous]

Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

Thank you. It's honestly insane how this subtopic started by a parent trying to say that we should view each other as partners and within two pages we're here again.

The immediate response to me saying we should view each other as partners were several posts blaming parents for teaching being a hard job, and literally no posts talking about how education policy, administration, and politicians are the ones largely responsible for making teaching less desirable as a profession. Not parents. But for some reason people keep saying the it's the parents.

It's not the parents. Teachers have always had to deal with parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

+1 It's a pretty gross misrepresentation of what was actually said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

At my child's school (in a well regarded fcps hs), multiple teachers left mid-year for better pay and a better work-life balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

+1 It's a pretty gross misrepresentation of what was actually said.

The thread's been all over the map, but there has been a considerable amount of conversation about how the problem with teaching is parents. Which is probably not particularly productive, especially not in a forum that is frequented by a lot of parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

At my child's school (in a well regarded fcps hs), multiple teachers left mid-year for better pay and a better work-life balance.

Do you think it's because the parents emailed them too much, or is it more likely to have been because of bad administration, lack of effective disciplinary and behavioral policies, district-level meddling in how and what they teach to a degree that takes all the joy out of it, and constant testing? Because I'm guessing it was the latter issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

At my child's school (in a well regarded fcps hs), multiple teachers left mid-year for better pay and a better work-life balance.

Do you think it's because the parents emailed them too much, or is it more likely to have been because of bad administration, lack of effective disciplinary and behavioral policies, district-level meddling in how and what they teach to a degree that takes all the joy out of it, and constant testing? Because I'm guessing it was the latter issues.

This will be my last time responding to this strawman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

100%

But that does not excuse parents from treating teachers like crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

+1 It's a pretty gross misrepresentation of what was actually said.

The thread's been all over the map, but there has been a considerable amount of conversation about how the problem with teaching is parents. Which is probably not particularly productive, especially not in a forum that is frequented by a lot of parents.

You'd think that parents might get a clue and stop treating their kids' teachers like trash. But no...

-Parent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hehehe, preteachers are so overly optimistic and idealistic.

I hope it works out for you, TFA lawyer. I really do.

--20 year veteran who teaches at a "cushy" school where new teachers still regularly cry that first year, regardless of former experience.

I'm not overly optimistic or idealistic, poster. After decades in the criminal justice system, I've seen and endured things that would make most people despair. To suggest that I'm not tough enough to hack teaching in public schools is laughable - I've already done quite well as a substitute, so I am not worried that I can make it there.

I can make it anywhere, and have done so my entire life - beginning with a childhood in which I was molested and beaten on a regular basis, and witnessed my mother nearly murdered among other horrors. They don't make human beings more resilient than me. I'm certainly not going to have my feelings hurt by a bunch of kids, nor by their parents - I've worked thousands of hours with kids in educational settings already, it's not something alien to me. Dealing with difficult people - adults and children alike - has been my entire career thus far.

Save your disingenuous well wishes.

You’ll be fine. Teachers love to act like teaching is the hardest most grueling job on the planet. It isn’t. You know that, I know that, lots of others who have truly worked hard(er) jobs know that.

… says the person who hasn’t ever taught.

I find it fascinating when ignorant posters chime in. Clearly the exodus out of the profession means nothing to you.

If it’s so easy, tell me why you aren’t signing up. I’d love to hear.

It’s not a mass exodus, just a couple percent higher per year than before the pandemic.

https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/3/6/23624340/teacher-turnover-leaving-the-profession-quitting-higher-rate?_amp=true

Given that more than 85% of teachers aren’t leaving every year, maybe this is just a natural weeding out of whingers who can’t hack it?

I watched two teachers at my school quit already and it’s only September. I’ve had to walk a crying teacher into the building last week, and I suspect she’ll be the 3rd to quit. My department is made up of primarily new teachers, and I doubt half will be back.

But sure, all-knowing DCUM, keep ignoring what those of us with actual experience are telling you. With the exception of the lawyer (who somehow thinks this will be easy), I don’t see anybody else joining our ranks. The challenge is out there. If we have it so good, join us. There are plenty of openings.

I am the career changing lawyer and I would like you to review my posts and tell me where I EVER said it was EASY - you can’t, because I NEVER did. I am being attacked here after an initial warm welcome, because I had the temerity to challenge a teacher who was making proclamations about what lawyers experience in their careers - length of hours in court, time to plan their cases, and salaries. The teacher had it entirely wrong and I simply provided, without attacking, the accurate information. And since then I’ve been repeatedly and roundly attacked.

Honestly I’m shocked at the nasty petty attitudes being displayed here by TEACHERS. Do you wallow with glee in anticipation of your students’ failures, too? Those of you behaving this way do not seem to me to have the right temperament to be teachers of young people nor mentors of fellow teachers.

I have a lot of experience in education, not just the 22 years I spent as a student but also 10 years as an educator at university, grade school and high school levels. And one thing I do know is that some teachers are bullies. And I suspect that some of you rabidly attacking me also express your hostility to the poor kids in your classrooms.

DP and a parent, not a teacher. But I would wager you are getting "attacked" because of your condescending attitude.

+1

I hope it goes smoothly for you, PP, but you come across as super high and mighty and it makes me all prickly reading your posts, and I'm not even a teacher.

+1

Another parent - who has been disgusted by the other parents in my community (many who also happen to be lawyers).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

100%

But that does not excuse parents from treating teachers like crap.

Please give examples of parents treating teachers like crap. This is not something I observe in my school. At all. I think sometimes parents can be ignorant of some of the pressures that teachers are under, but that's different. I mostly see parents who are respectful, supportive, and offering help. In fact I think when teachers at our school get frustrated with parents, it is often because they are offering the wrong help. But that's not "treating teachers like crap." It's a communication/expectation problem.

The two examples given on this thread are (1) sending emails about things that seem petty or pointless, and (2) refusing to address behavioral issues at home. The first, I think, is ridiculous. All jobs involve dumb emails, you learn to deal with them efficiently and you can't let it get to you. That's not a teacher-specific complaint. The second is more serious and is a genuine issue, but even there, I wouldn't frame it as parents "treating teachers like crap." I view it as parents struggling to parent, who likely had poor role models and/or are poorly resourced now. It is a real problem in education and probably a major source of teacher attrition, but I don't think it can be accurately summarized as "parents treating teachers like crap." More like "parents failing to adequately prepare and socialize their children for school."

The issue of the pandemic is a separate one but again, other than on these boards, I didn't see or even hear parents berating or criticizing teachers. I heard criticism of the teachers' unions, frustration with administrators and the mayor. Heck, I heard a lot of complaints about other parents, when people felt that their fellow parents weren't adequately advocating for what we needed. I didn't encounter much teacher bashing except for on DCUM, and even here much of the criticism was couched as "I fully respect teachers but am frustrated with the unions approach on this." That's not teacher bashing.

So I'd really like to know where it is that parents are apparently openly berating and criticizing teachers. It is not my experience at all, which perhaps is why I am confused by the argument that teachers are quitting because parents are terrible.