NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

I think the best answer is that sometimes admin is not supportive enough, and other times teachers are asking for solutions that are not appropriate, and then lashing out when admin rebuffs them. I've seen both sides plenty of times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

Progressive policies where remedial learners are kept in classes with advanced learners, getting rid of tracking or ap classes or teaching to the lowest denominator are all factors in this.

The author generally focuses the article partly on culture war stuff like stupid southern schools banning any discussion of trans issues etc, but neglects to include a discussion of the very real problematic issues of teachers being unable to control their classrooms and discipline kids. Basically out of control kids have to stay in the classroom because it’s now “unfair” to suspend or remove them. Until teachers feel safe and respected a big part of teacher retention is unaddressed and the lack of teachers will continue. I agree with much of the other problems in the article, but why it so hard to admit we can’t just restorative Justice hug problems away?

Then why are red states who are as far removed from progressive policies as you can possibly get facing the same (and in some cases greater) shortages?

Schools and school policies are handled at the local level. State politics or “color” have very little to do with how kids are disciplined (or not) in schools.

The “red” southern states you’re talking about have some of the most “blue” cities, and those cities are where the biggest problems are with the schools and therefore teacher retention.

Trying to turn this into a red/blue thing (especially when the biggest problems are in the blue areas anyway) is really not serving our kids. We need to make these discussions about education and kids, not politics.

OK but OP started a political thread with cliched talking points, not problem solving.

+1

It’s not political. It’s a fact that teachers are now hamstrung from any meaningful discipline in the classroom, as they’re being instructed, based on progressive education policies, to not suspend or expel students. It adds to their stress, in conjunction with the other issues mentioned in this thread, but it’s a major factor. You all can bury your heads and pretend it’s a non-issue. Kind of like some folks like to pretend there is no rising crime issue in Washington DC, but at the end of the day you’re only fooling yourselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

+100. If a child needs a more restrictive environment, IDEA doesn't prohibit them from getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

On the flip side, I think as a parent that teachers are feeling a huge push to be kind and nice and to not discipline at all. How do I sign my kids up for an old school strict teacher? The kind that has then organized to perfection, labeling and double checking their work. My dd is very forgetful and when I've chided her for forgetting something she will say "don't worry, my teacher says it's okay if things are late and that she won't take off for it." I'm not the only one who asked for a strict teacher either. Executive functioning skills are sorely lacking in kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

On the flip side, I think as a parent that teachers are feeling a huge push to be kind and nice and to not discipline at all. How do I sign my kids up for an old school strict teacher? The kind that has then organized to perfection, labeling and double checking their work. My dd is very forgetful and when I've chided her for forgetting something she will say "don't worry, my teacher says it's okay if things are late and that she won't take off for it." I'm not the only one who asked for a strict teacher either. Executive functioning skills are sorely lacking in kids.

Move south https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/08/10/school-paddling-corporal-punishment/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

This is such a petty and dumb complaint in a conversation that is about bigger issues that all I can think is that it's good you, specifically, are a former teacher. "I hate that some of my students' parents were very invested in their kids' education, and also were not always succinct in their communications." That's fine, but not an industry-wide issue in need of addressing. Do you want to... eliminate SAHMs? Discourage parents from contacting teachers? Enroll parents in writing courses so they can ask their questions and make their comments more directly?

I hope the paragraph length of my comment isn't too much for you to handle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not OP. Question for teachers and former teachers: one big complaint I hear is "lack of admin support" and it seems like it relates a lot to discipline. My impression is that teachers in some schools (like ones who have poorly implemented a MTSS system) struggle with classroom management because their consequences for bad behavior don't have teeth, since the consequences you can give for bad behavior inside the classroom can only go so far.

Is this correct? If so, is it isolated or is it only at some schools? Or are teachers who struggle with this just not very good teachers?

On the flip side, I think as a parent that teachers are feeling a huge push to be kind and nice and to not discipline at all. How do I sign my kids up for an old school strict teacher? The kind that has then organized to perfection, labeling and double checking their work. My dd is very forgetful and when I've chided her for forgetting something she will say "don't worry, my teacher says it's okay if things are late and that she won't take off for it." I'm not the only one who asked for a strict teacher either. Executive functioning skills are sorely lacking in kids.

Oof, be careful what you wish for. One reason there are fewer strict teachers like that now is because it doesn't always work the way you think it will.

Also, the problem you mention, of your DD not turning things in on time because the teacher doesn't take off for late work? Those are often district policies that are out of the teacher's hands. A teacher can be nurturing and kind and still insist on on-time work (and deduct for late work) if they have the backing of the school and the district. But if the district policy says that late work must always be accepted and cannot be marked down for tardiness, there's nothing they can do. That teacher may have just been accurately conveying district policy to your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

This is such a petty and dumb complaint in a conversation that is about bigger issues that all I can think is that it's good you, specifically, are a former teacher. "I hate that some of my students' parents were very invested in their kids' education, and also were not always succinct in their communications." That's fine, but not an industry-wide issue in need of addressing. Do you want to... eliminate SAHMs? Discourage parents from contacting teachers? Enroll parents in writing courses so they can ask their questions and make their comments more directly?

I hope the paragraph length of my comment isn't too much for you to handle.

I'm a DP who wrote the initial list of 5 things, and wow are you making me rethink where I ranked obnoxious parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

This is such a petty and dumb complaint in a conversation that is about bigger issues that all I can think is that it's good you, specifically, are a former teacher. "I hate that some of my students' parents were very invested in their kids' education, and also were not always succinct in their communications." That's fine, but not an industry-wide issue in need of addressing. Do you want to... eliminate SAHMs? Discourage parents from contacting teachers? Enroll parents in writing courses so they can ask their questions and make their comments more directly?

I hope the paragraph length of my comment isn't too much for you to handle.

I'm a DP who wrote the initial list of 5 things, and wow are you making me rethink where I ranked obnoxious parents.

That's fine, you can think I'm obnoxious, but if your top complaint about your entire field is "paragraph length e-mails" from some parent about their kid (and not, say, the kid's actual behavior), then it sounds like your job is not that bad.

I am not a teacher but I have received hundreds if not thousands of "paragraph length e-mails" from people who are annoyed about something I though was petty or dumb. Probably a LOT dumber and more petty than a parent who is upset about their kid. Complaints like this make teachers sound whiny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

+100. If a child needs a more restrictive environment, IDEA doesn't prohibit them from getting it.

Except there’s not enough money to enable that, and we can no longer suspend, expel, or transfer. So effectively, yes, they are stuck in the classroom. It is an unfunded mandate. And there are no consequences for parents who aren’t helping their children make progress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. If we can’t have an honest discussion where constructive criticism of discipline policy is a focal issue then we can continue to bury our heads and lament as teacher shortages rise. If teachers don’t feel safe they won’t teach. If they have disruptive or violent kids in their classes who must remain there because of policy then you’ll see the problem be an issue.

I'm a teacher and I love restorative justice programs. It's not even in the top 5 reasons I'm constantly one foot out the door.

1) The pay
2) The hours outside of contractual time
3) Parent expectations in terms of constant communication
4) Abundance of mandated state testing
5) Being in one of the few fields that will never transition to a remote or hybrid model.

You don't like RJ clearly, considering your OP was immediately blaming progressives for the teacher shortage. Here is a teacher telling you that RJ is not an issue to me at all.

+1 As a former teacher, I still have nightmares about the freaking paragraph length e-mails I would receive from SAHMs angered by a slight that their precious child received in class. Go do something else with your life! The teacher is already overburdened with the KIDS in her actual class in front of her. She doesn't have time to get on the computer and wrote you in length back.

This is such a petty and dumb complaint in a conversation that is about bigger issues that all I can think is that it's good you, specifically, are a former teacher. "I hate that some of my students' parents were very invested in their kids' education, and also were not always succinct in their communications." That's fine, but not an industry-wide issue in need of addressing. Do you want to... eliminate SAHMs? Discourage parents from contacting teachers? Enroll parents in writing courses so they can ask their questions and make their comments more directly?

I hope the paragraph length of my comment isn't too much for you to handle.

I'm a DP who wrote the initial list of 5 things, and wow are you making me rethink where I ranked obnoxious parents.

That's fine, you can think I'm obnoxious, but if your top complaint about your entire field is "paragraph length e-mails" from some parent about their kid (and not, say, the kid's actual behavior), then it sounds like your job is not that bad.

I am not a teacher but I have received hundreds if not thousands of "paragraph length e-mails" from people who are annoyed about something I though was petty or dumb. Probably a LOT dumber and more petty than a parent who is upset about their kid. Complaints like this make teachers sound whiny.

Parent here. Can you stop? We don’t need more teachers quitting and you are not helping here.

[Anonymous]

So funny how OP insists she isn’t being political. An actual teacher has responded and been dismissed out of hand.

It’s doesn’t matter if teachers were authorized to beat the shit out of unruly kids with closed fists if the schools are overworking and underpaying teachers and the parents are a bunch of lunatics. And THAT’s what’s going on.

And to answer the previous question about why the shortage is more acute in red states, the answer is obvious: because by and large red states pay less.

Most teachers are women. In the past, women had fewer opportunities in the workplace, so more became teachers. Now, there are more opportunities for women, and they pay more. That is the entirety of the problem.

[Anonymous]

In Indiana, I know a big concern among teachers is constant attacks from the State House on the public education system. Every year, the State passes legislation that expands school privatization in the state. There is always a flood of legislation introduced trying to micromanage teachers. Even if much of it doesn't pass, it's exhausting and demoralizing. The testing is relentless and largely pointless. And the pay isn't very good.

Raise the pay. Treat and train the teachers like professionals. Then leave them to their jobs. Emulate the successful public school systems in the rest of the world. Vouchers, charters, and high stakes testing is not a recipe for success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

Progressive policies where remedial learners are kept in classes with advanced learners, getting rid of tracking or ap classes or teaching to the lowest denominator are all factors in this.

The author generally focuses the article partly on culture war stuff like stupid southern schools banning any discussion of trans issues etc, but neglects to include a discussion of the very real problematic issues of teachers being unable to control their classrooms and discipline kids. Basically out of control kids have to stay in the classroom because it’s now “unfair” to suspend or remove them. Until teachers feel safe and respected a big part of teacher retention is unaddressed and the lack of teachers will continue. I agree with much of the other problems in the article, but why it so hard to admit we can’t just restorative Justice hug problems away?

Then why are red states who are as far removed from progressive policies as you can possibly get facing the same (and in some cases greater) shortages?

Schools and school policies are handled at the local level. State politics or “color” have very little to do with how kids are disciplined (or not) in schools.

The “red” southern states you’re talking about have some of the most “blue” cities, and those cities are where the biggest problems are with the schools and therefore teacher retention.

Trying to turn this into a red/blue thing (especially when the biggest problems are in the blue areas anyway) is really not serving our kids. We need to make these discussions about education and kids, not politics.

Are the regulations regarding what can and can’t be said/taught in Florida about education and kids?