NY times op ed on the teacher crisis

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

Bullcrap. Teachers were not "bullying" parents. There is no bOtH sIdEs here. I heard parents - during virtual school, with kids present(!) - actually scream and curse out teachers.

The pandemic was tough on a lot of people. That didn't give parents the right to crap on teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

100%

But that does not excuse parents from treating teachers like crap.

Please give examples of parents treating teachers like crap. This is not something I observe in my school. At all. I think sometimes parents can be ignorant of some of the pressures that teachers are under, but that's different. I mostly see parents who are respectful, supportive, and offering help. In fact I think when teachers at our school get frustrated with parents, it is often because they are offering the wrong help. But that's not "treating teachers like crap." It's a communication/expectation problem.

The two examples given on this thread are (1) sending emails about things that seem petty or pointless, and (2) refusing to address behavioral issues at home. The first, I think, is ridiculous. All jobs involve dumb emails, you learn to deal with them efficiently and you can't let it get to you. That's not a teacher-specific complaint. The second is more serious and is a genuine issue, but even there, I wouldn't frame it as parents "treating teachers like crap." I view it as parents struggling to parent, who likely had poor role models and/or are poorly resourced now. It is a real problem in education and probably a major source of teacher attrition, but I don't think it can be accurately summarized as "parents treating teachers like crap." More like "parents failing to adequately prepare and socialize their children for school."

The issue of the pandemic is a separate one but again, other than on these boards, I didn't see or even hear parents berating or criticizing teachers. I heard criticism of the teachers' unions, frustration with administrators and the mayor. Heck, I heard a lot of complaints about other parents, when people felt that their fellow parents weren't adequately advocating for what we needed. I didn't encounter much teacher bashing except for on DCUM, and even here much of the criticism was couched as "I fully respect teachers but am frustrated with the unions approach on this." That's not teacher bashing.

So I'd really like to know where it is that parents are apparently openly berating and criticizing teachers. It is not my experience at all, which perhaps is why I am confused by the argument that teachers are quitting because parents are terrible.

In APS, parents were screaming at teachers and cursing at them during virtual school. APS parents also threw public tantrums on Facebook and Twitter hating on teachers. It was disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

100%

But that does not excuse parents from treating teachers like crap.

Please give examples of parents treating teachers like crap. This is not something I observe in my school. At all. I think sometimes parents can be ignorant of some of the pressures that teachers are under, but that's different. I mostly see parents who are respectful, supportive, and offering help. In fact I think when teachers at our school get frustrated with parents, it is often because they are offering the wrong help. But that's not "treating teachers like crap." It's a communication/expectation problem.

The two examples given on this thread are (1) sending emails about things that seem petty or pointless, and (2) refusing to address behavioral issues at home. The first, I think, is ridiculous. All jobs involve dumb emails, you learn to deal with them efficiently and you can't let it get to you. That's not a teacher-specific complaint. The second is more serious and is a genuine issue, but even there, I wouldn't frame it as parents "treating teachers like crap." I view it as parents struggling to parent, who likely had poor role models and/or are poorly resourced now. It is a real problem in education and probably a major source of teacher attrition, but I don't think it can be accurately summarized as "parents treating teachers like crap." More like "parents failing to adequately prepare and socialize their children for school."

The issue of the pandemic is a separate one but again, other than on these boards, I didn't see or even hear parents berating or criticizing teachers. I heard criticism of the teachers' unions, frustration with administrators and the mayor. Heck, I heard a lot of complaints about other parents, when people felt that their fellow parents weren't adequately advocating for what we needed. I didn't encounter much teacher bashing except for on DCUM, and even here much of the criticism was couched as "I fully respect teachers but am frustrated with the unions approach on this." That's not teacher bashing.

So I'd really like to know where it is that parents are apparently openly berating and criticizing teachers. It is not my experience at all, which perhaps is why I am confused by the argument that teachers are quitting because parents are terrible.

In APS, parents were screaming at teachers and cursing at them during virtual school. APS parents also threw public tantrums on Facebook and Twitter hating on teachers. It was disgusting.

Well I'm in DCPS and I'm not aware of any incidents like that. Certainly not at our school and as far as I know, nowhere else either. As for Facebook/Twitter, I feel like parents were falling all over themselves thanking teachers and supporting them, even when the closures when on longer than people were happy with and they started to grumble quietly amongst themselves. But even then, those conversations were not "teachers suck" but more like "this situation sucks and I'm frustrated with the mayor, the district, and the union for not being able to figure this out."

I wonder of the teachers who left APS left the profession altogether or just left APS. Because that doesn't sound like a common situation. I have family who are educators throughout the US and while the pandemic was incredibly hard on them (as it was on everyone) none of them have ever experienced anything like that. Their complaints are entirely about school administration and district policy. They might grumble a bit about parents but it's not a central complaint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Daycare workers ... truly the MOST underpaid profession. We really need to fix that, among other gross issues in the American economy.

100%

But that does not excuse parents from treating teachers like crap.

Please give examples of parents treating teachers like crap. This is not something I observe in my school. At all. I think sometimes parents can be ignorant of some of the pressures that teachers are under, but that's different. I mostly see parents who are respectful, supportive, and offering help. In fact I think when teachers at our school get frustrated with parents, it is often because they are offering the wrong help. But that's not "treating teachers like crap." It's a communication/expectation problem.

The two examples given on this thread are (1) sending emails about things that seem petty or pointless, and (2) refusing to address behavioral issues at home. The first, I think, is ridiculous. All jobs involve dumb emails, you learn to deal with them efficiently and you can't let it get to you. That's not a teacher-specific complaint. The second is more serious and is a genuine issue, but even there, I wouldn't frame it as parents "treating teachers like crap." I view it as parents struggling to parent, who likely had poor role models and/or are poorly resourced now. It is a real problem in education and probably a major source of teacher attrition, but I don't think it can be accurately summarized as "parents treating teachers like crap." More like "parents failing to adequately prepare and socialize their children for school."

The issue of the pandemic is a separate one but again, other than on these boards, I didn't see or even hear parents berating or criticizing teachers. I heard criticism of the teachers' unions, frustration with administrators and the mayor. Heck, I heard a lot of complaints about other parents, when people felt that their fellow parents weren't adequately advocating for what we needed. I didn't encounter much teacher bashing except for on DCUM, and even here much of the criticism was couched as "I fully respect teachers but am frustrated with the unions approach on this." That's not teacher bashing.

So I'd really like to know where it is that parents are apparently openly berating and criticizing teachers. It is not my experience at all, which perhaps is why I am confused by the argument that teachers are quitting because parents are terrible.

In APS, parents were screaming at teachers and cursing at them during virtual school. APS parents also threw public tantrums on Facebook and Twitter hating on teachers. It was disgusting.

Well I'm in DCPS and I'm not aware of any incidents like that. Certainly not at our school and as far as I know, nowhere else either. As for Facebook/Twitter, I feel like parents were falling all over themselves thanking teachers and supporting them, even when the closures when on longer than people were happy with and they started to grumble quietly amongst themselves. But even then, those conversations were not "teachers suck" but more like "this situation sucks and I'm frustrated with the mayor, the district, and the union for not being able to figure this out."

I wonder of the teachers who left APS left the profession altogether or just left APS. Because that doesn't sound like a common situation. I have family who are educators throughout the US and while the pandemic was incredibly hard on them (as it was on everyone) none of them have ever experienced anything like that. Their complaints are entirely about school administration and district policy. They might grumble a bit about parents but it's not a central complaint.

Also want to note that I saw some stuff during virtual school that I was not happy with, and my response was to just let it all slide. Because I felt like the situation was terrible for everyone and no way was I going to express frustration over even stuff that I think is pretty problematic (relating to teaching approach and in particular how some kids were addressed by the teacher) in the middle of a pandemic when I knew everyone was at their wits' end. That's how most parents I know handled it too. Like "well it's not great but now is a time to be forgiving and cut people some slack."

So basically the opposite of teacher bashing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

Teachers had a party too....I think you are having a pity party and $hitting on teachers. It wasn't a part on that end either. Enough

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Yes, which is why it was so disappointing that so many parents bullied and shat all over teachers during the pandemic.

-Parent

Politicians did a great job of exploiting animosity between teachers and parents during the pandemic. Teachers (and administrators, and teachers unions) did PLENTY of complaining, bullying, "$hitting" on parents during the pandemic, during a time when parents should have been viewed as true allies since they were mostly at home with kids facilitating virtual school. Instead parents were scolded for not wanting to spend time with their kids (that was never the issue, most parents I know relished the extra time with kids), told "school isn't childcare" (it explicitly is), gaslit that "school is open, it's just the building that's closed" (come ooooooon) and were expected to pivot constantly to adapt to virtual school, hybrid, masking policies, rolling quarantines, etc. I was also a big fan of "just get a nanny" and "whatever, it's not like you're actually working anyway" (actually, yes! we were).

If you can't see how that situation went both ways, then you obviously weren't a parent during the pandemic. Because yes, teachers took abuse during Covid closures and I'm not endorsing that, but being a parent was not some glorious vacation. Unless you think working at 2am every night for months because you spent half the day surprising virtual school and trying to meet your kids basic needs sounds like a beach retreat.

But your last paragraph is exactly what happened. Parents were exhausted and took it out on teachers, who were just doing what their bosses asked.

1. Most parents didn't take anything out on teachers. Most of us just muddled through, thanked teachers profusely for everything they did, and prayed it would all work out in the end (which in some case, it didn't -- some of us are still dealing with issues that arose during the pandemic and still aren't getting the support we need)

2. Many teachers (and teachers unions) explicitly did not do "what their bosses asked" when it came to returning to the classroom. In my own district, the teachers union took a hard line "only when it's safe" attitude that resulted in most kids in the district being virtual until August 2021 (including no or very limited summer program which had been promised to help kids catch up from the lost year but the schools were unable to staff). I know that teachers and teachers unions are not always in perfect agreement, and I get that a union might take a severe stance to get more concessions. But for parents who had been home kids (especially those of us with kids under age 7 whose virtual school required near constant supervision and was incredibly hard on families), the continued school shut downs, at the behest of teachers' unions, well after teachers had been given priority for vaccines, felt like a slap in the face.

If you view criticism of those union policies or the refusal of individual teachers to return to the classroom even after the union gave the go ahead as "taking it out" on teachers, that's a weird framing. Kids needed to go to school, teachers were vaccinated (or had been given the opportunity to do so), there were masking and quarantine policies in place, and STILL unions and individual teachers refused to return to the classroom in my district. If that's your position, don't be surprised when parents are unhappy with you.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph.

I also agree that unions/teachers wanted to stay home longer than most parents wanted. HOWEVER, I support them in that and could see how they felt attacked. NO ONE has the right to tell another person/people who work in a close environment (classrooms, etc.) with others during a pandemic what their risk/safety tolerance shoudl be. You have no right to dictate that for teachers or anyone else. You also had options for dealing with that: send in under the parameters allowed (FCPS was only "closed" for about 6 mos.); homeschool; tutor/supplementl; private school. We both work and muddled through doing enrichment I found online for FREE and one tutor on occasion (that was not $$$).

So, I'm a hard disagreement with how you characterize the teacher refusal to work. You have no business telling them what they have to do, what risk they should take and bring home to their families, etc. And you sound like a real a$$hole saying that you do.

Tell that to the many people who worked in person through the entire pandemic. Teachers fought to not be considered "essential workers" so that they could work remotely during the pandemic. They wanted to be home with the white collar workers. Ok. But now you see teachers complaining about doing the basic function of their jobs, and people are responding "hey, as a fellow white collar worker, there are things I don't like about my job too, but I still do it because they pay me. you should try that."

Teachers want to stay in that special category of being especially revered for the sacrifice they make. But unlike other similar workers, they didn't make that sacrifice. They wanted to stay home.

Start a thread discussing dealign with the nursing shortage, and you might discover that people have a different attitude. Because nurses showed up and did their jobs through the pandemic like the essential workers they are, and people are grateful. Teachers didn't want to be in a category with nurses. They wanted to be in a category with accountants. Okay, well no one cares about the job satisfaction of accountants. You picked the field, do your job.

...Or leave, which teachers are doing in droves and why this thread started. It is not surprising to me that teachers are leaving because every single thread about them devolves into attacks over things that most of them had no power over. My kids are out of the system now, and I hope every single teacher sees the animosity and disrespect on this thread and gets out.

A significant portion of this thread has been teachers saying that they would stay in their jobs but only if parents stop sending them messages or talking to them, or if only they could work remotely 1-2 days a week.

I mean, I too could quit because I don't like responding to email. I will wind up in another job where I have to respond to email.

I actually respect my kid's teachers enormously, but they all seem okay performing the basic aspects of, you know, being a teacher. I guess that's why none of them have quit.

Most of the teachers I've heard of quitting in the last two years have simply moved schools, for better pay or a better administrator or simply a different challenge. I don't actually know anyone who has left the profession, and the numbers indicate that most of the loss of teachers have been in red states where pay is dismal and there are often lower requirements for becoming a teacher in the first place. That's not a parent problem. That's a "our city/county/state doesn't value public education" problem.

The opening paragraph isn't true.

At my child's school (in a well regarded fcps hs), multiple teachers left mid-year for better pay and a better work-life balance.

Do you think it's because the parents emailed them too much, or is it more likely to have been because of bad administration, lack of effective disciplinary and behavioral policies, district-level meddling in how and what they teach to a degree that takes all the joy out of it, and constant testing? Because I'm guessing it was the latter issues.

It's not just a lack of disciplinary policies it's parents NOT parenting. They want to blame teachers/admin or say it's the schools problem when their child is out of control. It's too much and until you've experienced it on the school side you don't know. Teachers are leaving and people say they don't care ...I say great enjoy the shortage.

[Anonymous]

I spent half an hour searching the internet and couldn’t find a single video of parents screaming at teachers during online schooling.

I honestly find it very hard to believe that this was happening routinely during the months of online schooling and an example of it never made it to Tik Tok or YouTube or anywhere else.

Could the teachers here point us to an example?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Agreed, but I have no idea how to solve this. The problem we are facing as teachers is that parents don’t want real life (it’s real ups and downs) to happen to their children. They are trying to protect their kids from all ills, not seeing that interacting with others brings about its own stress because kids make mistakes. Parents then try to hold teachers responsible for every slight, bruise and bump that happens during childhood because childhood should be so “protected.” It isn’t really about being allies because there is no way to keep life from happening to a kid.

Teaching the kids is really fun, but parents have an expectation that everything be “happy and positive” but that isn’t life. Life is about dealing with crap AND being happy and content too. So, I am looking for another job after 24 years. I’m not changing the attitude of parents, but it has definitely changed since I started teaching in 2000. I may make another 6 years, I am only 45, but I am looking to get away from parents and still work with kids (ESL maybe or interventionist).

These are solvable problems, but because you insist on viewing parents as your adversary, you avoid solutions.

WHY do some parents seek to protect their kids from any adversity? Is it because parents are selfish and stupid? No. It's because parents are under intense pressure to ensure their child succeeds, and we live in a culture that punishes people for mistakes forever.

Parents are afraid. They are afraid that if their child struggles in 2nd grade, they won't have the same opportunities in 6th or 9th or college, and they'll be limited and struggle in adulthood to. Parents are also under constant pressure to prove their kids are "thriving," Also, and this one is mom-specific, parents get blamed every day in ways big and small for anything that isn't perfect in their kids' lives. It leads to guilt and anxiety.

And finally, sometimes parents are right. Sometimes kids should be protected. Sometimes a kid is actually being bullied and the school needs to intervene. Sometimes that "quirky" kid actually has special needs that aren't being addressed. Sometimes a parent really does know better what their kid needs, because while you are the education expert, they know their child better. Sometimes listening to a parent could be a gift, not a burden.

I feel this in every fiber of my being, even as my kids are now adults. One reason parents and teachers can't come together is that we have created school environments where it feels like there is no room for kids to fail and pick themselves up, yet teachers say that's what is needed. At the same time, student failure is blamed on parenting, there's no room in the discussions to point out areas in which kids aren't getting what they need and deserve from adults in their lives who aren't their parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

Yes, but if a disruptive kid has an IEP and parents insist that the mainstream classroom is the LRE, there is a long process to change that and/or threat of lawsuits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like how the author casually fails to mention of the impacts of progressive education policy in recent years, like instituting restorative Justice programs or less punitive approaches to managing disruptive students (like suspensions or of removing trouble students from classes), and it’s effect on teacher retention. If teachers feel they can’t teach properly because they have no recourse for disruptive students, or are in danger, but are forced to keep violent kids in classes because of these types of idealistic, naive policies, it would be good to read about that. Instead we get a watered down version of the truth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/opinion/teachers-schools-students-parents.html

If your thesis were true, the red America wouldn't be facing the same crisis, but some of the biggest shortage are in some of the reddest districts of the reddest states

+1
In addition, many of the policies about keeping students in classes have nothing to do with progressive education but are a factor of special education laws that all schools have to follow.

IDEA *does not require* that disruptive kids stay in the classroom.

Yes, but if a disruptive kid has an IEP and parents insist that the mainstream classroom is the LRE, there is a long process to change that and/or threat of lawsuits.

It took loaaaads of documentation and time just for my kid to get more pull-out academic time on her IEP. She's never been disruptive, we as parents wanted it, her SPED teacher wanted it, reg ed teacher wanted it...but it's considered a "more restrictive placement" so the powers that be hesitated because schools are evaluated on what percent of sped kids receive their services in the reg ed classroom among non-disabled peers (vs. in a sped classroom with sped peers) and can get "dinged" if they move to a more restrictive placement without alll the data or have too many kids in placements deemed more restrictive. I'm not saying it's right, but that's just how it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's say everyone here is right: teaching has perks that outweigh the negatives, and if teachers are complaining it's just because they don't know what it's like in other jobs. Even if that's so, the shortage was grossly apparent in 2019 (https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/) and has only gotten worse.

So you say, "teachers shouldn't be complaining and they shouldn't be quitting because the job isn't that bad." But the reality is, they are. Experienced teachers are quitting, new teachers are quitting, and enrollment in teacher education programs is way down (https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/what-teacher-preparation-enrollment-looks-like-in-charts/2023/08#:~:text=Teacher%2Dprep%20enrollment%20over%20the%20past%20decade&text=From%202009%2D10%20through%202014,of%20the%20pandemic%2C%20Fuller%20said.).

Saying it shouldn't be happening doesn't make it not happen.

I agree we need to make sure teaching is a desirable profession, both in order to attract great people into teaching and also to ensure the people teaching our kids have high job satisfaction and like their jobs. Both are very important to me.

What I wish is that teachers and parents viewed each other as allies in making that happen, and in making schools great places to learn AND work. It is disheartening to see teachers saying that parents are the primary reason they are leaving the profession, or engaging in arguments about who works harder or has it tougher, parents or teachers. The truth is that most parents do not have high paying, easy, flexible jobs. They are also struggling in their own ways.

When we see each other as adversaries, we all lose.

Agreed, but I have no idea how to solve this. The problem we are facing as teachers is that parents don’t want real life (it’s real ups and downs) to happen to their children. They are trying to protect their kids from all ills, not seeing that interacting with others brings about its own stress because kids make mistakes. Parents then try to hold teachers responsible for every slight, bruise and bump that happens during childhood because childhood should be so “protected.” It isn’t really about being allies because there is no way to keep life from happening to a kid.

Teaching the kids is really fun, but parents have an expectation that everything be “happy and positive” but that isn’t life. Life is about dealing with crap AND being happy and content too. So, I am looking for another job after 24 years. I’m not changing the attitude of parents, but it has definitely changed since I started teaching in 2000. I may make another 6 years, I am only 45, but I am looking to get away from parents and still work with kids (ESL maybe or interventionist).

These are solvable problems, but because you insist on viewing parents as your adversary, you avoid solutions.

WHY do some parents seek to protect their kids from any adversity? Is it because parents are selfish and stupid? No. It's because parents are under intense pressure to ensure their child succeeds, and we live in a culture that punishes people for mistakes forever.

Parents are afraid. They are afraid that if their child struggles in 2nd grade, they won't have the same opportunities in 6th or 9th or college, and they'll be limited and struggle in adulthood to. Parents are also under constant pressure to prove their kids are "thriving," Also, and this one is mom-specific, parents get blamed every day in ways big and small for anything that isn't perfect in their kids' lives. It leads to guilt and anxiety.

And finally, sometimes parents are right. Sometimes kids should be protected. Sometimes a kid is actually being bullied and the school needs to intervene. Sometimes that "quirky" kid actually has special needs that aren't being addressed. Sometimes a parent really does know better what their kid needs, because while you are the education expert, they know their child better. Sometimes listening to a parent could be a gift, not a burden.

I think maybe you don’t understand the scope of the problem. Here is an example from a colleague: Parent email: Larla has small bruise on her shin and we asked Larla 3 times what happened and the kid says I don’t know. (Please see the accompanying picture) And then the parents ask if we happened to see an incident on the playground with 120 Kindergartners that may have bruised their child’s shin when it was such a non issue the KID doesn’t even know, never told the teacher about it, etc. And could we please make sure Larla doesn’t fall on the playground.

I’m glad you think parents are right and children need to be protected, but protected from shin bruises?

I’m sure this will work itself out, but probably not by the time I leave. Go ahead and blame “parental anxiety” and the need for children to “thrive”. Sure blame me/my colleagues and our inability to write thoughtful emails to overly anxious parents in the 20 minutes of time we have. Or blame our inability to “view parents as partners.” It doesn’t really matter, I’m just telling you the problems we are facing. I’m sure I could be much more empathetic and follow the kids around on the playground with foam or put shin guards on all the kids before they play on the playground. I’m not a therapist so I am not qualified to deal with parental anxiety.

[Anonymous]

Could I get a link to teachers forum discussions of parents screaming at them during online schooling?

[Anonymous]

Or maybe to a news story?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I spent half an hour searching the internet and couldn’t find a single video of parents screaming at teachers during online schooling.

I honestly find it very hard to believe that this was happening routinely during the months of online schooling and an example of it never made it to Tik Tok or YouTube or anywhere else.

Could the teachers here point us to an example?

I was a parent who heard this happen to my kid's teacher while she was online "in class". I was in the next room and wasn't recording. I know it got reported up but not sure if there was an actual recording. There were also hostile APS parents on Facebook and Twitter.

Frankly, I find it incredulous that you never heard of parents abusing teachers during the pandemic.

https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2022/03/school-staff-violence-pandemic
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/opinion-parents-berating-teachers-making-decisions-without-the-data-advice-for-principals/2021/01
https://www.today.com/parents/teachers-grapple-being-bullied-during-pandemic-learning-t208061

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I spent half an hour searching the internet and couldn’t find a single video of parents screaming at teachers during online schooling.

I honestly find it very hard to believe that this was happening routinely during the months of online schooling and an example of it never made it to Tik Tok or YouTube or anywhere else.

Could the teachers here point us to an example?

Our district used Go Guardian to monitor internet usage on student laptops issue by the district. I had a parent scream at me after I told her son that it wasn’t time to be watching You Tube during class. She screamed, “What he does is none of your effing business!” I muted her and then sent the class on a break. She then typed a bunch of nasty messages to me on the chat. Ridiculous.